We need a really good honest firearms debate.

This debate, kind of reminds me of the Crosby, Stills, and Nash song......"Love the One you're With"

Crosby Stills Nash - Love The One You're With Lyrics | MetroLyrics

If you can't be with the one you love,
Love the one you're with.

 

Tease, tease, tease! Bloody hell, Ura-Ki, I had a high-school girlfriend like you! Where are the damn pics?

@M118LR Longest American kill was 2515 yds (2300 meters)... The new record is by a Canadian is 3773 yds (3450 meters)...boggles the mind.

 

No arguing with the .50, but at my age I'm not humping it - or at least not more than a few yards. CM is right, if they're not coming right at you with intent, 2-300 yards is max which then gets down to Chelli's observation, "love the one you're with" and the lightweight AR is much easier on this old frame.

 

I guess everyone has had their say on this thread and it is about finish but...but this thought occurred to me last night prior to bed...

The 5.56 round while not perfect has put a hell'va lot of our adversaries bodies into the ground, many, many more than our own so there must be something good about it. Again, it is not a perfect round and I definitely see how the Green Tips (M855) would simply punch through and not drop the adversary since they were made to penetrate body armor but I'm not giving up on it yet. Perhaps, a magazine mix of M855 and something with better fragmentation like some of the new OTM is the answer. Dunno. But, I can carry a ton of it, it is fairly cheap, easy recoil, on and on and so forth... But, yes, I will get me a 7.62 NATO firearm in the near future also, it's not perfect either but...but a big seller for me is I can hunt with it here if I am so inclined.

 

A logical fallacy, it is, to say that we have killed more with it than have died from whatever the other guy has...actually, the casualty rates in general are so far down that in all honestly, "we" seem to be the only guys who know how to hit anything. THAT greatly skews the way the data is read.

 

Well if you want to say "X cartridge has killed more people than any other cartridge..." the winner (outside of war) would be the .22 S/L/LR rimfire. Hands down. Why? Because so many people have been shot by it.
The .30-30 has probably killed more deer and elk, and probably moose for that matter, plus a mountain of humans (outside of war), than any other cartridge.

Handgun cartridges?
War: 9mm Luger. The 7.62 Tokarev/Mauser being in the running as well.
Outside of war? My vote goes to the .38 Special. Also a runner up in the war dept. as well, but probably well in third place. The .38 Special was used by EVERYONE worldwide!

Rifle cartridges? All/either/both:
Don't know, my guesses would be 8mm Mauser, 7.62x54R, .303 British. Probably in that order too. If you say 7.62x54R, .303 Brit and then 8mm Mauser, well you might be right too. Or 8mm Mauser, .303 Brit, 7.62x54R... or .303 Brit, ...

 

There may be allot of folks shot by .22 caliber firearms, but the statistics show that only about 10 % of firearms related deaths are from .22 caliber firearms. Google Answers: Crime Statistics by Handgun Caliber

The top 10 guns used in crimes in the United States, according to an
unpublished Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms report:

1. Smith and Wesson .38 revolver
2. Ruger 9 mm semiautomatic
3. Lorcin Engineering .380 semiautomatic
4. Raven Arms .25 semiautomatic
5. Mossberg 12 gauge shotgun
6. Smith and Wesson 9mm semiautomatic
7. Smith and Wesson .357 revolver
8. Bryco Arms 9mm semiautomatic
9. Bryco Arms .380 semiautomatic
10. Davis Industries .380 semiautomatic

A study done in by the University of Pennsylvania showed that, in
Philadelphia,:

In 1985, of 91 homicides

44% .38 caliber revolver
19% .25 caliber pistol
14% .22 caliber revolver
14% .32 caliber revolver
3% 9 mm pistol
2% .357 caliber revolver

In 1990, of 204 homicides

23% 9 mm pistol
18% .38 caliber revolver
16% .357 caliber revolver
16% .22 caliber revolver
10% .32 caliber revolver

"The Virginia Department of Criminal Justice Services studied 844
homicides that occurred in 18 jurisdictions from 1989 through 1991.
Firearms were identified as the murder weapon in 600 cases. Over 70%
of the firearms used were handguns. Of those handguns where the
caliber and firing action could be identified, 19% were a .38 caliber
revolver, 10% were .22 caliber revolvers, and 9% were 9 millimeter
semiautomatic pistols."

"The Hawaii Department of the Attorney General, Crime Prevention
Division, studied 59 firearms-related homicides in Honolulu from 1988
to 1992. Handguns were used in 48 homicides (over 80%) including 11
handguns of 9 millimeter caliber, 10 of .357 caliber, 10 of .38
caliber, and 5 of .25 caliber."

 

Imagine that...the .38 caliber seems to top the list again and again. I would never have guess it. Interesting...

 

They are everywhere. Single most common concealed carry revolver, and even more when you consider how many strangely carry .38 in their .357..

 

Y'all keep forcing me to bring up facts, when do I get the chance to delve into my unabashed strong opinions?
I might toss the .38/.357 revolver at you whilst drawing and firing the Double Stack Glock 21SF .45 ACP in the general direction? That's only if Y'all are within the arc of my 7.62 NATO Semi-automatic rifle!

 

The .22 Short has been shooting people since the mid-1860s and carried by soldiers in the Civil War. Sure they died of peritonitis later, but they still died because they were shot. Then the .22 Long came along and shot more people, then the .22 Long Rifle came along and still more were shot. They have been shooting people longer and more often than any other cased/self contained cartridge out there.

I said they have killed more people than any other cartridge. Can I prove that? No. Can you disprove that? Again no, but ask any firearms historian what was the most common cartridge gun caliber carried for the last 158 years in the world, and the .22 rimfire tops the list. Loaded in more countries than any other cartridge in history, and sold in greater numbers than the next five runners up - combined. And yes that includes military cartridges.

The crime stats you list were for 1985 and 1990, with a limited number of cartridges and small geographical area. I still stand by the statement that the .22 rimfire has killed more people outside of war, period, simply because so many guns are out there and so many people were shot with them.

 

I believe you are right.When looking historically and due to medical issues resulting from, I do believe the .22 is the winner.

 

Simply having reliable semi automatic rifles with detachable mags, plenty of ammo and lots of experience putss you far ahead of the average person. Most of our secondary and tertiary platforms would make us better prepared than the majority your neighbors.

Whatever you have, learn it, and understand it's weaknesses as well as strengths and use accordingly.

When it comes to 5.56 variants, the best ballistics comes from a 6.5mm bullet. I'd still stick with 5.56 and a 77 grain bullet.

Same with 7.62x51. The 7.62 caliber is bested by the slightly smaller 7mm ballistically at virtually all ranges, but I'd still stick with the NATO round for SHTF availability.

 

I'd wager I'm (and you are) more deadly with a 10/22 than any of my neighbors with a 308.

 

Since the article begins with an anecdote from the author where the 5.56 was seemingly unable to kill no matter how many times the enemy was shot, I'll share an anecdote from my Dad. Dad served in WW2 and his unit was attacked by the Japanese one night. As he described it, he said the Japanese were drugged up on something and sometimes didn't realize they were dead. He emptied the clip from his M1 into a soldier that was charging him (he was cool headed and an excellent shot), but even though he was hit at fairly close range by each of the 30-06 rounds the man just kept coming. He died literally at Dad's feet after Dad was forced to use his bayonet.

So, does this true though anecdotal sample of one mean that the 30-06 and it's derivative 7.62x51 NATO are ineffective as well?

 

What he said ^^^^^. Learn to use the tool. I recall there was a shooting months ago. The shooter had a big gun that shot big ammo but few were injured. Why? Because he was not a good shot. So if I have my .22lr, know how to shoot and hit my target vs. someone who has a gun that shoots a larger caliber but cannot shoot, who has the better odds?

Now off to re-read the original question of this thread.

 

If we were to look at Mil. ammo only, the one with the highest speed and energy transfer on target WILL kill more likely then the others, in WW2, that was the mighty .30/06 ( on the u.s. side) followed by the .45 APC, used by more platforms and carried by more troups then the "others" like the M-1 carbine. Then the mIl decided to look for a new round and bang, we got........another 7.62 high velocity cartridge. Then some where along the way, we decided we needed all the advantages of a very compact platform that held a lot of ammo, and we got the M-16 with what was deemed a tiny little round. When the 5.56 55 gr ammo was introduced, the results were mixed. When the bullet managed to penetrate, it keyholled, and would cause a lot of trauma ( much like the "old" .30) but many times, if failed to penetrate far enough to do damage. All this was made even worse with the adoption of the M855 ammo, which would ice pick through and through. Because of this, and lack of range, the mIl. Pulled a bunch of old M-14 rifles out of storage and issued them to the boys and girls doing the fighting! Problem solved.
Now days, we don't have the issues with ammo performance, we can choose the most effective bullet deaigns, at the best speeds we can generate, and we don't have leathelaty issues like the mIl. does.

 

1) LOL damn right I do, I do it on an almost weekly basis.
Not that I'm against snares because I'm not. But snares take time to set up and a suppressed MKII or 10/22 does not. Since being issued my Southern Man Card requires that I embrace all things southern I have found that I like eating squirrel. Said squirrels love the walnuts and acorns on the property. I harvest the squirrels quietly, quickly and regularly.

2) If that is the weapon at hand, and/or quiet is needed then yes. Both the aforementioned .22lr's will fire extremely accurately out to 100yrds suppressed and subsonic using CCI Stingers. The suppressor design is a collaboration between myself and two other individuals. Once patent and rights and all that crap is covered, perhaps they will be coming soon to a gun shop near you.. I don't mean to suggest that I would engage a tango at that distance with the above by choice, but both are capable of a temple/ear/eye socket shot at that distance.

3) I don't plan on going afield anywhere other than to hunt my property.
I'm 54 yrs old with an artificial knee, 14 total knee operations and several others under me. I have at one time or another broken EVERY major bone in my body. Several more than once. I've been shot at, snake bit, powder burnt, cussed at, rode hard on Sundays and put away wet. I cannot pass through a metal detector or be wanded without setting off all kinds of alarms-one of the reasons I refuse to fly nowadays. I don't mind getting nekkid, but TSA agents aren't a turn on for me. It's safe to say my high speed low drag double black death ninja days are well behind me. If we were to bug out it would be with motorized transport.
If need be we will make our stand here. I have put a lot of thought, time,sweat and an insane amount of money into this place and it's defense. I will use whatever weapon platform I feel is best for the given situation. Burt Gummer is a close personal friend and gets a gun stiffy every time he walks into our gun vault- Believe me, I have plenty of choices. If it's trying to stop the Zombie Chi-Com Russian Mongol Mongrel hordes, when they breach the outer perimeter we will open up with the belt feds(8mm) Same answer if it's Hillery controlled government troops gone wild and wearing pink pussy hats looking to do a bit of raping and pillaging at our expense.
Now I would like to think that after the smoke clears and me and the Tactikats have looted the bodies of the vanquished I would use the dozer to push all the bodies aside to clear the firing lanes, but more than likely we will be overrun before all that. In that case I hope I have the presence of mind and physical strength to turn the key and press the button that sends this whole place up, Kats and all sky high. If @Seacowboys ventures up this far afterwards, perhaps while he is rooting through the rubble looking for extra 40mm rounds he will be good enough to pause and say a few kind works over my Kats..