The Athiest Argument

The Constitution was written by Deists not Christians, they did not believe in the "revealed" religions.

If it had been written by Christians we would be more likely to have a monarchy than a republic.

The bible is big on "anointed kings" ruling by "divine will", there is no mention of rights in the bible, and the only freedom is to do what god wants.

 

I have to add some things. First I was born into this country. And even today there is no one forcing me to stay. The country was founded on the premise that all men are created equal and have self evident rights. Most of these rights are found in the Bible. The laws governing our people were taken almost word for word from the 10 commandments. Murder, thievery, all called crimes. But even in the beginning it was established that you did not have to serve God. Jesus himself established the separation of Church and state by saying give unto Cesar what is cesar's and God what is God's. God himself said you have free will to worship him or not. So only misguided forces such as the crusades ever forced people to worship God. America has never forced people to serve God WITH LAW. However there have been Christian radicals who tried to force Black slaves and Indians to convert. Of course these people were wrong to do this. It is also wrong to deny People faith thier religious practices except where in infringes on the rights of others. So again Religion has no place in Government , not now not ever. Government has right to regulate religion either and yet today it so does every day.

If today another country were formed using Christian values which rivaled our founders vision I would seriously consider leaving this country because here? W e are no longer free. This country is lock stock and barrel under the control of Secular Humanists and the country is going under because of it. In Christian terms? we have lost the Blessing of God. He will not bless a Godless country. This is why every time we remove another part of Gods influence this country slips further into the pit.

 

Thomas Jefferson Called himself a Christian. Just because you oppose the Catholic church does not make you outside of Christ.

Religion

Further information: Thomas Jefferson and religion
Jefferson rejected the orthodox Christianity of his day and was especially hostile to the Catholic Church as he saw it operate in France. Throughout his life Jefferson was intensely interested in theology, biblical study, and morality. As a landowner he played a role in governing his local Episcopal Church; in terms of belief he was inclined toward Deism and the moral philosophy of Christianity.
In a private letter to Benjamin Rush, Jefferson refers to himself as "Christian" (1803): "To the corruptions of Christianity I am, indeed, opposed; but not to the genuine precepts of Jesus himself. I am a Christian, in the only sense in which he wished any one to be; sincerely attached to his doctrines, in preference to all others; ascribing to himself every human excellence..."[205] In a letter to his close friend William Short, Jefferson clarified, "it is not to be understood that I am with him [Jesus] in all his doctrines. I am a Materialist; he takes the side of Spiritualism; he preaches the efficacy of repentance toward forgiveness of sin; I require a counterpoise of good works to redeem it. Among the sayings and discourses imputed to him by his biographers, I find many passages of fine imagination, correct morality, and of the most lovely benevolence; and others, again, of so much ignorance, of so much absurdity, so much untruth and imposture, as to pronounce it impossible that such contradictions should have proceeded from the same being."[206]
Jefferson praised the morality of Jesus and edited a compilation of his teachings, omitting the miracles and supernatural elements of the biblical account, titling it "The Life and Morals of Jesus of Nazareth".[207] Jefferson was firmly anticlerical saying that in "every country and every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty. He is always in alliance with the despot...they have perverted the purest religion ever preached to man into mystery and jargon, unintelligible to all mankind, and therefore the safer for their purposes."[208]
Jefferson rejected the idea of immaterial beings and considered the idea of an immaterial Creator a heresy introduced into Christianity. In a letter to John Adams, Jefferson wrote that to "talk of immaterial existences is to talk of nothings. . . . At what age of the Christian church this heresy of immaterialism, this masked atheism, crept in, I do not know. But a heresy it certainly is. Jesus taught nothing of it. He told us indeed that 'God is a spirit,' but he has not defined what a spirit is, nor said that it is not matter. And the ancient fathers generally, if not universally, held it to be matter: light and thin indeed, an etherial gas; but still matter."[209]


In my opinion he believed as I do that MAN has perverted the purest religion ever given to them. He was certainly a Pure Christian at heart and a confessed one in Public.

 

Washington according to this was also of the same church as Jefferson. Prayed but like the deists used providence instead of God while in Government. But being like deist and actually being one is debated even today.

Religion

Main article: George Washington and religion


Stained glass window of Washington kneeling in prayer, Capitol Prayer Room, U.S. Capitol, Washington, D.C.
The exact nature of Washington's religious beliefs has been debated by historians and biographers for over two hundred years. Although he visited several denominations in his public life, he was primarily affiliated with the Anglican and, later, Episcopal church. He served as a Vestryman and as Church Warden for both Fairfax Parish in Alexandria and Truro Parish,[189] administrative positions that, like all positions in Virginia while it had an official religion, required one to swear they would not speak or act in a way that did not conform to the tenets of the Church.
Like the deists Washington avoided the word "God" and instead used the term "Providence."[1] He never talked about Jesus Christ, though he did refer to Christianity as the religion of Christ.
Eyewitness accounts exist of Washington engaging in private devotions.[190]
Washington frequently accompanied his wife to church services. Although third-hand reports say he took communion,[191] he is usually characterized as never or rarely participating in the rite.[192][193] He would regularly leave services before communion with the other non-communicants (as was the custom of the day), until, after being admonished by a rector, he ceased attending at all on communion Sundays.[194]
Chernow, in a 2010 podcast, summed up Washington's religious views:

There has been a huge controversy, to put it mildly, about Washington's religious beliefs. Before the Revolutionary War he was Anglican – Church of England – which meant after the war, he was Episcopalian. So, he was clearly Christian....He was quite intensely religious, because even though he uses the word Providence, he constantly sees Providence as an active force in life, particularly in American life. I mean, every single victory in war he credits to Providence. The miracle of the Constitutional Convention he credits to Providence. The creation of the federal government and the prosperity of the early republic, he credits to Providence... I was struck at how frequently in his letters he's referring to Providence, and it's Providence where there's a sense of design and purpose, which sounds to me very much like religion... Unfortunately, this particular issue has become very very politicized.[2]​

 

True, but a few also thought the teachings of JC to be a good moral compass, while at the same time having disdain for the Church. For example, see Jefferson' Bible, in which he attempted to remove the supernatural and miraculous from the text, and focused on the compassionate man.
http://uuhouston.org/files/The_Jefferson_Bible.pdf
http://jeffersonbiblepdfstee.wordpress.com/

So, Jefferson can find wisdom and morality in the teachings of JC, but thinks "lighthouses are more useful than churches." He thought organized religion to be quite coercive, oppressive and destructive:

(a great quote!)

(See also Jefferson's letters to Volney.)

John Adams, a Unitarian also, similarly thought, although rejecting the divinity of JC, the Christian religion was good in that it provided society a common set of values and sense of direction (i.e., morality).

Read about their exploits against the Musselman Barbary Pirates....

I'm not trying to argue...just point out that JC was not totally thought of as a fairy-tale by some of the Founders. Thomas Paine on the other hand thought JC was complete baloney.

Regardless....I wonder what both camps would have thought about "a woman's right to choose?"


NOTE: I am not Christian (but follow the 11 commandments and live by the Golden Rule).

 

God came down from the cloud's and told me that it's ok to make fun of atheist's...
He like's our sense of humor...
Atheist's he don't care much for...
I like him,He's a really nice guy...
He's gone back up in the clound's now...He ask me to Hello to the Monkey's for him...That is all..

 

The next time you talk to God....ask him why he created liberals? I'm very curious about that one. If everything has a purpose, I'm just wondering what theirs is.

 

Kingfish, you’re a good guy, and I hate to differ with you, but you touch upon a sore spot with me, so …..
True, however today secular tyranny is rampant.
I can’t argue with you that tyranny within our local, State, and Federal governments is rampant, and that the source of this tyranny is secular, in that the people imposing the rules and restrictions are doing so for the good of their pockets, not for the good of a supreme being;
United Nations for one. World Government for a second. All religions today are being persecuted in the name of secular humanism.
But I don’t accept that the goal of this tyranny is to persecute religion. The tyrants of our age, and most of those of any age, are interested in power and material wealth. Religion only concerns them as it facilitates or hinders their acquisition of that wealth and power.

The beauty of our American constitution was the fact that it was conceived on christian principles. God never ordered anyone to serve him. We were given free will from the start.
What you identify as “Christian Principles”, I identify as humanist principles which grew out of the Age of Enlightenment, set down by the founding fathers in the shadow of the centuries of struggle by the peoples of the western world to free themselves from the heavy foot of the Church. You call them Christian, I call them humanist, and we can agree on a mutual point – our Constitution started out as an amazing document.
The constitution was to ensure us all religious freedom, free from government control or meddling. This follows what the bible taught.
I can agree with the first assertion, but you’re going to have to quote me the chapter and verse to support the second. I don’t read the Bible and see much of “to each his own.” I see more of “my way or the highway.”

As a Christian I do not condemn homosexuals for they have made their choice. Today however they seek to force us to except them. They seek to destroy marriage between man and woman refusing to except civil unions.
I cannot even begin to understand the Christian argument that homosexuals are destroying marriage, by asking for equal rights under the law. If my neighbor goes out and does the wild thing with his cow, he does not affect my marriage, or marriage in general. If he marries his cow, he doesn’t affect me. The “marriage” that many enter into in a church, has nothing to do with the right to “marriage” that most homosexuals are seeking. Most homosexuals simply wish their union to be equally recognized under the law, not under the church.

I fully support any church which refuses to sanction the marriage ceremony of a homosexual couple in their church. That’s their right. That church is a private club, which reserves the right to accept or reject the membership application of aspiring members, and reserves the right to refuse the use of their facilities to non-members.

But it is not within that church’s purview to prevent local, State, and Federal government sanctioning that union. I know from experience that though my first marriage occurred in a church, the divorce did not, and the ramifications of that divorce were all secular, not religious. My last marriage occurred outside of a church, and I am no less married than I was the first time.

Granting homosexuals to right to marry under the law, does not diminish the Christian’s holy matrimony. The same word may be used to describe both in common vernacular, but they are far from the same thing.

It is not the religious who are on the offensive here. We point out what God says and they call us Bigots. But no one here says you have to follow God. We just point out what happens if you don't.
You know, every one of the combatants of World War I claimed to be fighting a defensive war. Now, how can that be? You yourself may not attempt to coerce others into following your belief, and I’m sure that you do not in your everyday life; but to make the sweeping claim that Christians in general do not attempt to force others to follow their beliefs is in stark contrast to your position (and the position of most Christians) on homosexual marriage. By refusing equal rights to all citizens, regardless of their sexual orientation, you are forcing your beliefs on others.

Ill never compromise my faith. EVER. Religion has no place in government and Government has no place in Religion. However has removing the ten commandments from our halls of justice and our schools improved the country? Has the outlawing of prayer in public buildings added any quality of life? Did Obama's statement that we are no longer a Christian Nation do any good?
We were never a “Christian Nation.” God knows (tongue in cheek) that the Christian Nation concept has been bandied about for quite a while and many a clever Christian has set out to prove this claim; but ……

The first six presidents of this nation supported and voiced Deist and Unitarian views – not Christian. (Whether Unitarians are in fact Christian is a matter of debate and personal perspective.) Benjamin Franklin, Thomas Paine, were outspoken Deists.

Ethan Allen stopped his wedding ceremony when asked if he would pledge to live with his wife “agreeable to the laws of God.” He agreed to continue only when the minister agreed that the “God” to which he was referring to was the God of Nature, not the Christian God.

John Adams, second President of the United States, said “The doctrine of the divinity of Jesus is made a convenient cover for absurdity.” John Adams later recounted that as the Founding Fathers gathered for the inaugural session of the Continental Congress in 1774, Thomas Cushing moved that they begin with prayer. In Adams’ words, “because we were so divided in religious sentiments, we could not join in the same act of worship.”

Thomas Jefferson said, “There is not one redeeming feature in our superstition of Christianity. It has made one half the world fools, and the other half hypocrites.”

James Madison, fourth President of the United States, and arguably the father of our Constitution, said, “Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble enterprise. During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What have been its fruits? More or less in all places, pride and indolence in the clergy, ignorance and servility in the laity, in both, superstition, bigotry and persecution.” In a letter, written in 1822, Madison said, “An alliance or coalition between government and religion cannot be too closely guarded against.”

The Treaty of Tripoli, passed by the United States Senate in 1797 (when the ideals of our founding fathers were still understood), read in part: “The government of the United States is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion.”

Our “Christian Nation” is a myth. When you strip away the hyperbole and revisionist history, the facts clearly speak for themselves.

The moral fabric of this nation is being destroyed by Compromise.
Compromise is a necessary element of survival. What we choose to compromise is up to us, but a refusal of compromise can mean the end of our personal survival, and the survival of our nation.

 

The bible itself does not support the "pro-life" arguments. Rather than post long quotes I will post these links to arguments against that.

http://www.theskepticalreview.com/JFTPoliticsAbortion.html

http://www.rabbinicalassembly.org/sites/default/files/public/halakhah/teshuvot/20012004/06.pdf

http://voices.yahoo.com/the-bible-does-not-condemn-abortion-1381469.html

http://www.etsjets.org/files/JETS-PDFs/37/37-2/JETS_37-2_169-184_Fuller.pdf

http://www.wordwiz72.com/chscript.html

http://emerald7tfb.wordpress.com/2011/05/22/abortion-and-judeo-christian-religion/

In essence if the fetus could not live on its own, then a fine was imposed, payable to the husband, since the wife was the husbands property.

Murder was always punished by a life for a life, not a fine, property offenses were punished by fines.

 

TwoCrows Sorry...that was a rhetorical question. I didn't mean for you to do research.

My intended thought was more along the lines of: If you could go back in time and ask both groups what they thought about abortion, I don't think there would be difference in their response: Why would you do something like that?

 

Not a problem, the research taught me useful and interesting things.

 

I agree with you that the goal of tyranny is not the persecution of religion. But I see it as not only the seeking of wealth and power but the destruction of religion in general. We believe that religion is being replaced with secular humanism(the anti Christ)

Is it not true that Jefferson took his moral compass from the words of Jesus while rejecting the the Catholic church of England? So what are those values if not Christian? Christ plus values equals christian values. I never said they created a Christian Nation. I said Obama stated were no Longer a Christian Nation didnt I? . SO is Obama just stupid? Did he believe at one time we were a Christian Nation?

God taught all through the Bible that we had free will. Where do you want me to start? Freedom came from God. The founders said freedom was god Give not from men. They said it was self evident.

Where have you been ? Homosexuals have rejected Civil Unions. Even if they are equal in matters of law. No they want it called Marriage . This is to change the very meaning of the word. I have no problem with civil Unions done in court. I d9ont care if some guy wants to marry his horse just call it a civil union not a marriage. The bible states marriage is to be between one man and one woman. I will never compromise the belief that this is how it is supposed to be. But this not enough for them. If they cant rub it in face of Christians it isnt enough.

And in all this I agree totally with you that the founders found Jesus to be the best of the best but that men abominated his teachings with pride of the clergy and such. I do not attend Church for this very reason today but it does not change a thing. These men saw Jesus as a true son of God to be emulated not dispatched to the ground. They did build this nation using Christian Morals as their guide. The words in red not the established church of the times which all hated. They despised oprganized religion. I dont have much use for it either. I only know a few true Christians who know the truth. When you strip away the Deist there are a bunch of angry Christian men who walked away from a church that was corrupt and formed their own. Jefferson wrote a book not a bible Guit. He took what he saw as the most important of Jesus teachings and wrote them down in a book. They later included most of this in the constitution.

Compromise your position in battle? you die. Compromise your wealth? you go broke. Compromise my faith? I go to hell. Every time we compromise our freedom for security we lose both. Compromise is the George Hegel Dialectic. Thesis versus anti thesis equals synthis or compromise . The write and creator of communism could not have said it better. Im through compromising.

 

There are two kinds of marriage, one is a civil ceremony with a government license, the other is a religious ceremony with approval from a religion.

Government is to be separate from religion, so why is religion trying to force religious doctrines on non-religious acts ?

To many who are not religious this appears to be a form of tyranny.

 

Two crows, Religion is not trying to force doctrine on any one. It has always been defined as one man and one woman. If two men want to have equal rights I have no trouble with it. Call it a civil union but it is not marriage.






Marriage is defined in the dictonary as the social institution under which a man and woman establish their decision to live as husband and wife by legal commitments, religious ceremonies, etc.

The Bible states marriage is to be between one man and one woman. This is what we are trying to protect. No one is forcing doctrine on anyone. Gays should be able to join in civil union and share all the exact same rights as Married couples do. It is the Gays who are trying to force Religion into compromising the meaning of the word. They reject using the words civil union. The courts are dealing with this issue right now. Most of us Christians have zero problems with civil unions. JUST DONT TRY AND CALL IT MARRIAGE.

 

Ill go one further. If Marriage becomes defined as two men or two women then churches could be sued for not performing marriages between same sex couples on the grounds of discrimination. No sir the fight has to end here with the definition of the word. This will be in front of the supreme court soon enough. I hope it upholds centuries of one man and one woman.

 

Little girl on a plane

An Atheist and a Little Girl on a Plane
An atheist was seated next to a little girl on an airplane and he turned to her and said, “Do you want to talk? Flights go quicker if you strike up a conversation with your fellow passenger.”
The little girl, who had just started to read her book, replied to the total stranger, “What would you want to talk about?”
” Oh, I don’t know,” said the atheist. “How about why there is no God, or no Heaven or Hell, or no life after death?” as he smiled smugly.
“OK,” she said. “Those could be interesting topics but let me ask you a question first. A horse, a cow, and a deer all eat the same stuff – grass. Yet a deer excretes little pellets, while a cow turns out a flat patty, but a horse produces clumps. Why do you suppose that is?”
The atheist, visibly surprised by the little girl’s intelligence, thinks about it and says, “Hmmm, I have no idea.”
To which the little girl replies, “Do you really feel qualified to discuss why there is no God, or no Heaven or Hell, or no life after death, when you don’t know shit?”

 

Kingfish, it seems we're not that far apart after all. Still there are some comments worth fleshing out.

Is it not true that Jefferson took his moral compass from the words of Jesus while rejecting the the Catholic church of England? So what are those values if not Christian? Christ plus values equals christian values.
Well, I can’t say for sure whether Jefferson took his moral compass from the words of Jesus or not. I know he owned and read the Bible, that he revered Jesus the man, and that he rewrote the New Testament, and in the process he wrote out all of the supposed miracles recounted there. He didn’t consider Jesus divine, and so whether he could be considered a Christian or not is debatable. He also owned a copy of the Muslim Qur’an. I think it probable that he took his moral compass from many sources.

I never said they created a Christian Nation. I said Obama stated were no Longer a Christian Nation didnt I?
I apologize. I assumed from your comment that you did consider this to be a Christian Nation. I am puzzled though by the remainder of that comment, when you seemed to infer that we would be better off with the Ten Commandments posted in public buildings, and school prayer mandated. If we are in fact not a Christian Nation or a Jewish Nation, why would we have the Judeo-Christian Ten Commandments posted in our law courts and public buildings? Why not teachings out of the Hindu Vedic texts? Why would we need any religious teachings at all posted in our courts? We have a fairly comprehensive legal code, and it is the only code enforceable in that court.

SO is Obama just stupid? Did he believe at one time we were a Christian Nation?
Well, if we look at the context of his comments, and not just the sound bite, Obama actually said “Whatever we once were, we’re no longer a Christian nation. At least not just. We are also a Jewish nation, a Muslim nation, and a Buddhist nation, a Hindu nation and a nation of nonbelievers.”

I can’t find anything there to argue with. The majority of the citizens of this nation may profess Christianity as a religion (though what they mean by that word could fuel another thread), but we also have citizens who are Jews, Hindus, Muslims, Buddhists, Atheists, and Agnostics.

God taught all through the Bible that we had free will. Where do you want me to start? Freedom came from God. The founders said freedom was god Give not from men. They said it was self evident.
”We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.” The word used by the founders was “Creator”, not God, and certainly not the Christian God. That makes a world of difference. I can’t think of any of our founding fathers who failed to express a belief in a Supreme Being; they weren’t unanimous in their belief that this Supreme Being was the Christian God.

Where have you been ? Homosexuals have rejected Civil Unions. Even if they are equal in matters of law. No they want it called Marriage . This is to change the very meaning of the word.
I’m afraid that the “meaning of the word” has already changed. Websters now states that the definition of marriage is:

a (1): the state of being united to a person of the opposite sex as husband or wife in a consensual and contractual relationship recognized by law (2): the state of being united to a person of the same sex in a relationship like that of a traditional marriage

Change is inevitable; sometimes for the better, sometimes for the worse.

 

Tulianr, I have already shown that these men were in fact Christians or at least closer to being Christians then any other faith. I would bet Their use of the word Creator meant God. They were men who had enough of the Catholic church and its ties to the King of England. Today there are hundreds of splinters all claiming to be the one and only true Christian faith. Jefferson talked about Jesus the man not the Church, and the church of England was the church of his time. That Church saw him as a REBEL, A Heathen etc. Today he would be called a protestant .
My reference to the ten commandments is just plain fact. Since its removal from schools and our halls of justice this nation has fallen into decay both morally and economically. Look around you at the law less youth and greed run rampant. It was better before and that statistic is not debatable. If I have to prove it with publications I will. We have compromised our morality, our security, our liberty, our rights, our property, our speech, our religions and our currency. The list of compromises is much larger but those will do. This country was better before we made all those concessions.

W e can argue till we are blue in the face and nothing will change. Millions have had this same discussion with the same results. As a Christian I see the end times in front of me. I see the Anti Christ as the secular world government rising up. I see a leader soon to come forward who will command love and respect. He will have Charisma like no earthly being is capable of. He will make speakers like Obama look like morons. Most Christians and other God based will follow him.He will promise world peace, an end to famine, an end to war and I will reject him because I know who he is. Freedom is the only peace. I cant compromise my free will or my faith any more. Jefferson would like me.

 

I respect your beliefs.

 

You have posted this same insulting "joke" twice now.

Is this all you have ?