SM Book Club- Starship Trooper- DISCUSSION

Some further links to Edward C Banfield's Edward C. Banfield - Wikipedia social research to chew upon:

A book review extract about "The Unheavenly City" which amplifies DKR's comments. Review on JSTOR

A free .pdf download of "The Unheavenly City Revisited" (17MB)
http://www.untag-smd.ac.id/files/Perpustakaan_Digital_1/CITIES PLANNING The Unheavenly City.pdf

an interesting contrast to Heinlein's emphasis of selfless duty towards the collective (aka society / combat unit / buddies) is Banfield's work: The Moral basis of a Backward Society, where duty is limited to the self interest of one's kinship group, rather than to society or the community more broadly; can lead to societal, community, and ultimately, individual impoverishment.
https://coromandal.files.wordpress.com/2011/02/edward-c-banfield-the-moral-basis-of-a-backward-society.pdf

 

Another contrast is found in Japanese Oni (demon) tales.

So - badly translated.....(This version is from the times before WWII)
Once upon a time, Red Demon and Blue Demon lived in the mountains of Japan. Red Demon wanted to be friends with children. So he put a board in front of his house. He wrote these words on the board: "Open house. Please come in." But everyone was afraid of him, so no one came in. He felt sad and finally took away the board.

One day, Blue Demon came to Red Demon's house. He said, "Do you really want to be friends with children?"
Red Demon said, "Yes, I do."
"Okay. I have an idea," Blue Demon said.
Red Demon listened to his idea and said, "That's a good idea, but you may have a hard time."
"Don't worry," Blue Demon said.
Then, they went down to the village.

Some children were playing in the village. Suddenly, Blue Demon came. He shouted, "Get out of here, or I'll hurt you."
The children were afraid and cried, "Help us!"
Then, Red Demon came and shouted, "Go away!"
Blue Demon whispered, "Hit me. It's okay." Red Demon hit Blue Demon, and Blue Demon ran away.
"Thank you for saving us. You're very strong and kind. Let's play together!" the children said. They went to Red Demon's house and played together.

A few days later, Red Demon went to Blue Demon's house to thank him. Red Demon found a letter on the door.

Dear Red Demon,
I'm glad you have many new friends now.
I want to see you again, but I'm afraid I'll
scare your new friends. So, I'll go far away.
I'll always be your friend.
Good-bye,
Blue Demon

Red Demon read it many times. He cried. He never saw Blue Demon again.

A children's story. The moral taught to children in Japan?

To achieve success, there must be sacrifice. The corollary to the moral is A true friend will make a sacrifice for his (her) friends..

There are variations of the morale for this tale. The one here is cited to show that the claims of Japan having a monolithic racial makeup = a strong culture may be off the mark. Race is less of a factor, IMO, than a common language and a shared culture that is taught to youngsters in all aspects of their lives - both at school and home .

The US (North American Empire in SST) is a Nation of Nations. While this amalgamation can provide a common, resilient culture, it can also provide sharply defined stress points that may be utilized by an enemy (internal or external) to fracture that same culture. Again, part of the Long War viewpoint.

 

Johnny’s teacher, Jean V. Dubois, the instructor in History and Moral Philosophy seemed to have known early, who and what Johnny could become. I have read speculation and thought so myself that Dubois was written into the story to portray the authors true thoughts and stance. Interesting that a teacher had more impact on Johnny then his own father did. Johnny and his family were illegal. Did it matter?Book written in the later 1950's and the main character is from an illegal family. Very interesting.

Q: The book favors corporal punishment, the author seems to think that it would cure many of the issues that we have in society. Do you think this could work now? If corporal punishment was declared the form of punishment from this time forward, would it work?

 

THey have corporal punishment in Thailand is it successful there?

 

You tell me. And then tell me if we implemented corporal punishment in Chicago, would it become a safer place? Also, would there have to be a breakdown of society first?

 

how do you measure that it works @ghrit you say it works but i see no proof either way that it works or doesnt work.

soz @Motomom34 i dont know if it works or not in Thailand

 

About Singapore:

Caning is a widely used form of legal corporal punishment in Singapore. It can be divided into several contexts: judicial, prison, reformatory, military, school, and domestic or private. So, not just .gov.

These practices of caning are largely a legacy of, and are influenced by, British colonial rule in Singapore. Similar forms of corporal punishment are also used in some other former British colonies, including two of Singapore's neighboring countries, Malaysia and Brunei.

Of these, judicial caning, for which Singapore is best known, is the most severe. It is reserved for male convicts under the age of 50, for a wide range of offenses under the Criminal Procedure Code, and is also used as a disciplinary measure in prisons.
Caning is also a legal form of punishment for delinquent servicemen in the Singapore Armed Forces (SAF) and is conducted in the SAF Detention Barracks. Caning is also used as an official punishment in reform schools.
Very SST for the .mil and 'reform schools"

 

As for BT's question would caning work today, for example, in Chicago?

A. No. Why?

Look at what RAH has said in the book:
Social responsibility above the level of family, or at most of tribe, requires imagination-- devotion, loyalty, all the higher virtues -- which a man must develop himself; if he has them forced down him, he will vomit them out.

Public punishment without the attending re-socialization of the offender (that is to say, solid (good) role models and the chance to live in a society that values the rule of Law) is or seems to be - a wasted effort. As others have said here, it may be better to just put a bullet in their head. Because once a feral has demonstrated their disdain for "polite society" and the attendant rule set - you are unlikely to ever get that person to change. A near lifetime of 'training' in a completely dysfunctional society is nearly impossible to overcome.

Once that feral has killed, they are (or should be) beyond the pale or protection of society. I've seen often said - they shoot mad dogs, do they not? I don't know if that is the answer, but it is an answer - albeit, one most repugnant.

 

May be that is why people are so leery of schools and I always hear the word indoctrination. It always has to start with the young and in a few generations, it will be the norm.

 

Indoctrination is not a bad thing. It is the content of the ideas/values of what is presented that can make or break a society. It isn't just schools, IMO the most corrosive force afoot to day - tearing away at the very heart of a once working society, is the mass media - radio, TeeVEe, movies, popular press and so on.

Example. On the old Shadow radio show the main theme of "The weed of crime bears bitter fruit." is repeated more than once. Today, the criminals are treated like rock stars... I don't think I need to reiterate the savage anti-societal 'message' implied and expressed in much of the so-called 'rap' music.

News programs take delight in attacking the Government (perhaps well deserved) - politicians and other so-called pillars of society. With no foundation, then society must fall. Not something I see as good for my kids and their children...bad in fact.

Why?



the alternative is unappealing.....

 

What I liked was the:

"But this universe consists of paired dualities. [the world has two of everything, good/bad, black/White, hot/cold, competent/senile, upright/venal, responsible/irresponsible] What is the converse of authority?"

"Responsibility, sir"

"Both for practical reasons and for mathematically verifiable moral reasons, authority and responsibility must be equal - else a balancing takes place as surely as current flows between points of unequal potential. To permit irresponsible authority is to sow disaster;"

The point is when you let some venial, senile idiot, who doesn't follow the rules everyone else is expected AND required to follow, run things and let them get away with it for whatever reason, the body politic fails, or as he puts it "To permit irresponsible authority is to sow disaster." (Think Hitlery, but there are also closer examples).

I also liked Major Reid's "I have never been able to see how a thirty year old moron can vote more wisely than a fifteen year old genius...but that was the age of the 'divine right of the common man'. Never mind, they paid for their folly." If voters (or anyone in a position of any power, had to take a test for senility, idiocy, venality, and so on, just think of how many would be banned! (Go see the "Lib-tard assaulted by rug" in Humor, et al for more on this. Again think Hitlery and other more close to home examples).

 

"Both for practical reasons and for mathematically verifiable moral reasons"

I have often wondered about the 'math' that Heinlein's characters carry on about.

The math I know is
More votes = win election.

Win election = power to loot the Treasury.

Loot the Treasury = dough to hand out goodies like Santa Claus.

Finally, hand out goodies like Santa Claus = More votes.

Pretty circular.....

Why did the Roman Empire fail?
8 Reasons Why Rome Fell - History Lists
I don't agree with all of the listed reasons - but two stand out

Economic troubles and over-reliance on slave labor.
Put into the modern parlance - slave labor of the time could be equated to modern (and cheap) 'sweatshop' labor found in so-called "developing countries." Good paying jobs disappear at home, the middle class vaporizes and chaos follows. BTW - none of this was addressed in SST

Government corruption and political instability
If Rome’s sheer size made it difficult to govern, ineffective and inconsistent leadership only served to magnify the problem. Being the Roman emperor had always been a particularly dangerous job, but during the tumultuous second and third centuries it nearly became a death sentence. Civil war thrust the empire into chaos, and more than 20 men took the throne in the span of only 75 years, usually after the murder of their predecessor. The Praetorian Guard—the emperor’s personal bodyguards—assassinated and installed new sovereigns at will, and once even auctioned the spot off to the highest bidder. The political rot also extended to the Roman Senate, which failed to temper the excesses of the emperors due to its own widespread corruption and incompetence. As the situation worsened, civic pride waned and many Roman citizens lost trust in their leadership.

This section is self-explanatory..... Today we don't have a Praetorian Guard to physically assassinate the sitting leader.
OTOH, what we do have today is a mass media, owned by a few - very few - rich individuals that seems hell-bent on (politically) assassinating any public figure that doesn't conform to what these few think is the right way to run things.

While SST talks a little bit to the chaos that led to the disintegration of the listed societies, it really said nothing to the underlying causes - other than to pontificate about social responsibility. Nothing wrong with that part of it, it was his story after all. But this myopic viewpoint leads many to dismiss the entirety of the work.

Life and a working society are or can be difficult things to understand. The results and outcomes of a non-working society are self-evident. The planet is littered with the remains of such failures....

 

True. Look at the Viet Nam War, war on drugs, war on crime.

 

Does caning work? Well remember several years ago when some jew kid was caught running around destroying public property in Singapore? Remember they were going to cane the little scum bag and he claimed he had ADD and should NOT be caned for his crimes? Sound familiar as to what Heinlein was saying here? AND the president of the US got involved (over a kid getting caned for his crimes in another country?! They don't even bother with our POWs, but let some little jew criminal get caught...) for WHAT reason?!

Anyway the little scumbag got caned and to this day when he hears "SWISH" he ducks and screams! So much for ADD and not being able to learn and how effective caning can be!

 

And this differs from what I said how?

1) Apparently Slick Willie DID get involved, just as I stated. So I was right about that.
2) I never mentioned what he did, if it was or was not a simple defacement with paint or not. Please point out where I said that in case I missed where I said it, and why you brought that up.
3) He had a lawyer. And this matters in what way? I never mentioned if he had one or not, so why bring it up? In what way does that matter?
4) If you would read what I said, rather than what you want to read into it, these sort of things would not come up.

Singapore Journal; A Flogging Sentence Brings a Cry of Pain in U.S.
By PHILIP SHENON,
Published: March 16, 1994

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SINGAPORE, March 11— The future of relations between the United States and one of its closest allies in Southeast Asia may rest on whether this futuristic, order-loving city-state carries out a punishment that dates back to its colonial past.

An American teen-ager, who has pleaded guilty to spray-painting cars and other mischief here, has been sentenced to a flogging, a punishment that has drawn a harsh personal protest from President Clinton.

Singapore has rejected American criticisms of the sentence -- six lashes with a moistened rattan cane -- imposed on 18-year-old Michael Fay of Dayton, Ohio. It responded that tough criminal laws had saved it from the fate of "cities like New York, where even police cars are not spared the acts of vandals."

President Clinton told reporters at a news conference in Washington this month that the United States had made a "strong protest" to Singapore. "This punishment is extreme, and we hope very much that somehow it will be reconsidered," he said. Four Months in Prison

Mr. Fay, a student at the Singapore-American School, has pleaded guilty to two counts of vandalism and two counts of mischief, admitting that he was one of a group of youths who spray-painted 18 cars, threw eggs at other cars and switched license plates. He also confessed that he had been in possession of traffic signs and Singapore flags that had been stolen by the son of a Swedish diplomat.

He was ordered to pay a $2,230 fine and was sentenced to four months in prison and six lashes of the cane. Canings, in which an official trained in the martial arts strikes a prisoner's buttocks with a half-inch-thick rattan cane moistened in water, are so painful that prisoners often go into shock before the flogging is completed. They leave permanent scars.

The judge who imposed the sentence, F. G. Remedios, said that Mr. Fay's crimes "could not be condoned as a display of growing pains and schoolboy pranks." Mr. Fay is in a Singapore hospital for psychiatric treatment as he waits for the punishment to be carried out. His family appealed for clemency.

The case threatens to damage relations between the United States and Singapore, which is one of its largest trading partners in Asia and its 11th-largest trading partner in the world. American businesses employ 95,000 Singaporeans, about one-sixth of the work force, and nearly 9,000 Americans live in Singapore, an island at the tip of the Malay Peninsula that resembles nothing so much as an affluent California suburb.

Western diplomats say that, given President Clinton's personal interest, Washington could react sharply if the punishment is carried out. "It's hard to imagine that United States-Singaporean relations would continue as if nothing much had happened," one diplomat said.

The charge d'affaires at the United States Embassy, Ralph L. Boyce, said, "We are not going to forecast possible future diplomatic actions." But, he added, the United States sees "a large discrepancy between the offense and the punishment."

The Singapore Government has executed four foreigners for drug trafficking in recent days despite international pleas for clemency and has laws so strict that it is illegal to fail to flush a public toilet. Singapore has said that it will not back down in the case of Mr. Fay.

The Ministry of Home Affairs, which oversees the criminal justice system, said in a statement that tough laws had kept Singapore "orderly and relatively crime free."

"We do not have a situation where acts of vandalism are commonplace," the ministry said, "as in cities like New York, where even police cars are not spared the acts of vandals."

The American Chamber of Commerce in Singapore said in a statement that it was "shaken by the reported decision to cane the boy" and warned that "it is likely to cast a cloud over Singapore's international reputation."

Mr. Fay arrived in Singapore in 1992 to live with his mother and stepfather, who works for an American package-delivery company.

He is being treated in the psychiatric ward of a local hospital while he is free on $48,000 bail pending his appeal. In preparation for sentencing, his defense lawyer presented two psychiatric reports stating that Mr. Fay suffered from symptoms of "attention deficit disorder," a neurological ailment.

In a recent letter to his biological father in Dayton, Mr. Fay said he had confessed to crimes that he did not commit out of fear of his interrogators. He said he had been slapped by an interrogator who threatened to whip him. "I don't know truly who did it, and everything that I admitted was a lie," he wrote. Coercion Is Denied

The Home Affairs Ministry has denied that Mr. Fay's confession was coerced. The ministry said in a statement that the police had conducted an internal investigation of the treatment of Mr. Fay that "revealed no evidence of police abuse."

In an editorial last week headlined "Spare the rod, Mr. Clinton?" The Straits Times, a quasi-Government newspaper, criticized the White House "interference."

The paper said it was surprising that President Clinton had the time to worry about Mr. Fay's case, given the foreign-policy crises facing his Administration and the "deepening personal crisis" of the Whitewater affair. "Singaporeans who find his intervention objectionable need to understand that heroic gestures go down well with the American public," the editorial said.

Photo: George Fay of Dayton, Ohio, displays a photograph of his son Michael, 18, who has been sentenced to receive six lashes and serve four months in jail for vandalism in Singapore, where he has been living with his mother and stepfather. Mr. Fay said he wants his son back now. (Associated Press for The New York Times) Map shows the location of Singapore.

 

To paraphrase: