She wore a hajib...

@3M-TA3
If there be such a thing as a 'moderate Muslim,' they're not condemning their own nutcases because they are afraid of retaliation from other Muslims. We're in agreement here, but I disagree with you about the American anti-choicers. They're not nearly so interested in protecting life as in controlling the lives of others. That's the problem with organized religions, particularly the 'abrahamic' ones: they're all on power trips and alas, all poisoned with misogyny too. The only difference is to what degree - and to what degree they can get away with it depending upon where they live. 'Freedom of religion' in the USA at least, means freedom from religion too and the religious too often forget that; even going so far as to think themselves above the laws of their own country. It's time to remove tax-exempt status from the whole lot and lose the hesitation to prosecute criminal behavior hiding under religious mantels. It's 2016, not 1616 and high time to leave the Bronze Age for all of us. Those who can't do that have the freedom to choose some other country to live in that better suits their primitivity of mind. At the moment, both Right and Left are hampered in their dealing with this problem; the Right because it panders to Christian fundamentalists, who don't want any scrutiny of religious groups backfiring on them too and the Left because they're terrified of being accused of 'racism' by any criticism of Muslims. Both facilitate terrorism because of their dithering.

 

I have to disagree with this.
"The Army of God published a "Defensive Action Statement" signed by more than two dozen supporters of Hill, saying that "whatever force is legitimate to defend the life of a born child is legitimate to defend the life of an unborn child... if in fact Paul Hill did kill or wound abortionist John Britton and clinic assistants James Barrett and Mrs. Barrett, his actions are morally justified if they were necessary for the purpose of defending innocent human life".[19][21] The AOG claimed responsibility for Eric Robert Rudolph's 1997 shrapnel bombing of abortion clinics in Atlanta and Birmingham.[22] The organization embraces its description as terrorist.[23]"
This is just one of several anti-abortion groups, that have a bloody history, including kidnapping, attempted murder, shrapnel bombs, and they don't much care who else might be near by, as long as they get thier target. They are known as one issue terrorists.

 

And yet you have to reach back almost 20 years to 1997 for an example much like the Obama administration does for the Kansas City bombing to focus on "domestic terrorism" while ignoring much greater the Islamic threat...

I don't condone bombs and murder, but comparing anti abortion group violence and terrorism to the Islamic threat is ridiculous.

 

1. It would be as much a mistake to stereotype all abortion protesters as violent extremists as it would be to stereotype all Muslims as extremists.....commitment to their respective causes range from relative apathy, to extremist....with various shades of moderation in between. I would agree somewhat with your statement, to the extent that most anti abortion protesters would not sanction murder, assault, vandalism, arson, coercion, menaces to life and limb in support of their cause....but some certainly do. Some are quite prepared, at least in their own mind to protect the unborn, by killing or wounding abortion service providers by unlawful means. They have no qualms about placing their god's laws above man's laws.

The new, ugly surge in violence and threats against abortion providers

2. Yes, some anti-abortion organisations have condemned violence, they tend to belong to organisations of moderates who work "within the system" using legal, peaceful means of promoting their cause. Condemning the violence of their militant and extremist brethren is probably as much a matter of maintaining an image of reasonableness in the promotion of their own cause than necessarily disapproving of the motivations of the militants and extremists. Having said that, such institutional expressions of public disapproval, do not mean that individual activists may necessarily disapprove of many of the tactics put into effect by the militant and extremist elements of their cause. The ends justify the means.

You personally may not be affected by anti abortion terrorist acts, but you are not likely to be a client of, nor in need of many of the other services that family planning services offer. Such clients and potential clients may have just a little more concern than you for their welfare and safety....in accessing services that they are legally entitled to make use of. Do you much care about their welfare and safety or is it just a case of "I'm alright Jack"? Urban Dictionary: I'm all right Jack!!

3. The issue of domestic terrorism against abortion service providers is not the personal risk of being a direct target, or even being the victim of collateral damage of specific acts of terrorism. The object of terrorism is not so much to injure the primary victims of their terrorist acts, but to affect and influence the lives of its secondary victims through engendering fear: i.e. fear directed at those not directly involved at the scene of he terrorist act. That IS the concern of society more generally, not just those directly and personally involved in the issue. In that sense can you explain to me in what way domestic anti abortion terrorists are any different in essence, to Islamic terrorists??

4. As a person who lives in a suburb of Sydney that has a very significant population of Muslims, some of whom I Interact with on a daily basis, I have no fear of being targeted with violence simply because in some minds that I fall within the category of "kafir" We in Australia have our share of Muslim morons...but fortunately they are recognised for what they are, as much by many Muslims themselves, and they are not loath to give such people a "bit of stick"What does stick mean? stick Definition. Meaning of stick. OnlineSlangDictionary.com for their asinine public comments. http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/nation/muslim-leader-blames-women-for-sex-attacks/story-e6frg6nf-1111112419114 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taj_El-Din_Hilaly

What you are objecting to is a comparison of scale....and without a doubt, Islamic extremism does account for a large proportion of global terrorism, and certainly, that IS a major concern for citizens and governments globally.....However, that does not give domestic terrorists of a Judeo/Christian flavour, a free pass for their acts of terror, underpinned by their religious beliefs. Christian extremists who commit acts of terrorism should be condemned for those acts...just as loudly as those committed by Islamic terrorists.

The murders and assaults committed against abortion service providers in the USA by religiously motivated individuals and groups , are acts of domestic terrorism, not simply acts of random purposeless homicide. The intent is not just to stop individuals from providing legal abortion services, but to deter others from providing such legal services, or making use of them. In that sense, there is a commonality with Islamic terrorism. The object of terrorism is to control the behaviour and beliefs of others by using fear inducing acts of violence, or credible threats of violence. In that sense, violent anti abortion activists are no different in essence to the jihadist....each justifies their murderous and antisocial behaviour because they believe that they are complying with what they understand to be their god's commands.

Anti-abortion violence - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

Using Obama as a straw man to diminish kellory's example of the Army of God, et al, as extremist anti abortion groups quite prepared to justify any means to "defend the life of an unborn child", does not invalidate kellory's argument. It just distracts without actually answering the claim. Although murder and manslaughter by anti abortionists is relatively uncommon, violent intimidation is not. More recent occurrences than kellory cited would include those of the 2009 assassination of Dr George Tiller Assassination of George Tiller - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia ; and more recently (2015), The Colorado Springs, Planned Parenthood Shooting. Colorado Springs Planned Parenthood shooting - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia .

I don't think that kell was suggesting that Americans should ignore a much greater Islamic threat. What he may be suggesting is that domestic acts of terrorism are also real and present threats to the American way of life, and should be recognised as such.

 

I did not give my simple search, any time frame, but it did come up with a lot of hits. I just picked one as an example. (It was one grain of sand on a beach ).
Many things about clinics and docs personal safety changed, due to the violence against them. Including, automatic gates, pass code access, scheduled appointments, Deadman traps, security hardware on the buildings to prevent break-ins to plant devices. Mirrors in places to prevent blind spots, cameras, and signs "you are under surveillance " types.
They did not stop being violent, we made it too hard to do, made the cost too high, the personal risk of capture too likely, and the prosecution certain.
It certainly was NOT a change of heart on the side of the attackers. The docs went defensive. What odds do you want to give, that the doc you are about to fire bomb, is packing cold iron? (Not a bet I would take).
Nowadays, I am more concerned with "knock-out" and" the penguin game"
Where black on white crime shows it's ugly head way too often. Blacks attacking whites on camera, for the fun of it, and it has resulted in several deaths so far, as well as a few attackers have been shot.
(My class for CCW had over 200 people in it, and many of those who gave voice to thier reasons, cited the rise of black on white crime. And this is without a religious mandate to kill infidels. Most of these attacks are the result of youtube and boredom!
Look at the numbers of new guns purchased, CCW applications, ammo sales, and lots of other factors. It shows people going on the defensive, not a change of heart or lessening of risk from the attackers.

 

I recommend this site, if we want to do some doctrinal nitpicking about Islam. Most of the extremists put as much weight on the Hadith as they do on the Koran, (or Quran, either spelling is correct) which is a collection of writings started 200 years after the death of Mohammed that are in part, in direct conflict with the Koran. This page offers the main bones of contention between the two. For example, we often hear about Muslims not liking dogs, about Muslim cabdrivers refusing to carry even seeing-eye dogs in their cabs, but there is nothing in the Koran against dogs! The dog-haters don't even know much about their own religion, no surprise when one considers that illiteracy is the norm, not the exception in Muslim countries. What they learn in Koran school depends entirely upon the attitudes of the teachers.
Misconceptions About Islam (Submission to God alone) | Submission.org - Your best source for Submission (Islam)

 

We have a couple of young men that live across the way. I have been saying they are Muslim and the kid swore they were Mexican. Last weekend they brought a few women to their place. The young ladies all were wearing hajibs and dressed traditionally. It confirmed I was correct but it also started a discussion. My daughter was over visiting and one of her best friends in high school was Muslim. My daughter used to love going over to her friends house but she said with all the attacks that have been happening overseas, she feels like she is developing a prejudice. I wasn't sure how to address that because it seems like trust is fading. It is horrible to admit but many also feel this way. I thought of this thread. Like I said in 2015, I am not ready to condemn the whole race but as time goes on and as bodies keep piling up, I struggle more and more. I found myself the other day questioning if it was safe to live near these young men. I tell myself it is a silly question but then I wonder is it?

 

The only reply I can give here is READ the Koran... you will need a Hadith to read it properly... because of how it is arranged...

but it will explain so very much... while I agree not all follow it as it is written... but...

if you actually read what it says... you will see so very much... sorta a the truth will set you free kinda thing...

a point to consider... their book says they are FORBIDDEN friendships with NON- believers!

says a lot more then that... like slavery is not only OK but in a few placed encouraged... lie/deceive to further their religion is also a thing...

 

So if some one is about to kill you ,I am free to stand in the wings and watch, having no right to interfere/intervene.

 

I'm not sure what you mean by "not having a right to interfere / intervene should a person be aware that someone is attempting to kill another person. What is the context of your rhetorical question?

In the context of voluntary euthanasia, provided that the person seeking it is competent to make that decision, and providing that the necessary legal protocols and safeguards are met, then whether you choose to watch from the wings, or hie thee hence to or go to some other place, is up to you. If I am terminally ill, and suffering from excruciating agony and loss of human dignity, and I choose not to extend that state of being, what right do you have to intervene / interfere with my bodily autonomy, and compel me to continue suffering the no longer sufferable?? If you choose not to accept voluntary euthanasia as an end of life option, that's your choice, and none of my business. If I choose voluntary euthanasia as an end of life option, what right do you, or anyone else for that matter, have in gainsaying my personal agency in making that decision?

Edit: Having read my reply, it may be construed that what I have expressed is written in anger. It is not so. Consider it as said as a civil dialogue between two people exploring each other's positions.

 

Last cab to Darwin. Thought provoking. Free will.