Morality...........

Excuse me? The original claim was that a belief in God was required for a human to exhibit morality.

The "proof" is as close as those who live by a moral code and yet do not believe in a deity.

The rest is a sidestep.


I deleted your unneeded primer on falsifiablity.


As regards " ridicule " , you mean like postulating that an entire subset of humanity has no morals because they don't believe in the same deity?

 

Iran: Discovery will collapse Christianity

I post this only to show that "morals" is a concept--not codified like the 10 Commandments--defined by its owner and based on *A* religion or value system.

So, this guy, the Ayatollah Areola HAS morals...AND, he does NOT believe in a Christian God. His morals are based on another religion's value set. Thus, disproving that morals come from the Christian God.

 

Where did Cro-Magnon come from? What about the numerous missing links that are needed and have never been produced?
jim

 

I know I'm nit-picking here, because I agree with what I believe your position to be - that morality does not come from a Judeo-Christian God; that morality exists, and even thrives, outside of Christianity.

(I personally feel that it is easier for me to teach my child morality outside of the Judeo-Christian ethos, than it would be in a Christian Church.)

This particular example though, does more to illustrate moral relativity than it illustrates non-Christian-based morality in action. I say this because Islam venerates the Jewish Bible. Jews, and Christians, are identified as "people of the book" and as such are subject to special protection under Islam. Most of the verses in the Qur'an which advocate violence, are talking about infidels - not people who don't believe in the Prophet Mohammed's revelations, but people who do not believe in the one true God, the God of Abraham. A Civil War was being waged between Pagan Arabs, and the Muslim community, while much of the Qur'an was being revealed. Muslims may believe that the New Testament is a bit off the mark (and they might very well feel justified in burning it), but at least the Old Testament portion of the Bible is accepted as scripture.

Most non-radicalized Muslims would consider burning the Bible to be an immoral act. This action, if not the figment of some Iranian Revolutionary Guardsman's imagination, is in the same class as Terry Jones' ignorant burning of the Qur'an. Neither are acceptable by their societies at large, and thus, the perpetrators of both are on morally shaky ground.

This example does a good job of pointing out why it is possible for very intelligent and well-meaning people to have a discussion, such as the current one, about morality; and to be on opposite sides of the proposition. Morality, in all of its nuances, is not a clear cut subject. But if all of the participants in this discussion didn't consider themselves to be moral individuals, we wouldn't be having the discussion at all, and that, at least, is a good thing.

 

Judge not lest ye be judged."

" Remove the log from thine own eye brother , prior worrying about the mote in another's... "


And also as stated in the other thread. I **KNOW** the territory , I was born into aberrant Christianity , I am a product/victim of the system and in the end living proof that the modern implementations of Christianity can and will at times produce A T H I E S T S.


Same question as Jim2 , do you consider Ted Haggard to be " moral"? Swaggart? Harold Camping? Joyce Meyer ?


I wasn't even going to answer you as I've already completed my duty to tell you the truth once and you chose not to believe. That is your choice that God allowed you to have, and it doesn't bother me at all. You are a reprobate. I doubt you completely understand the meaning of the word, but there you are. Prior to this I made no judgements on anyone. Now however, I must call it like I see it, as not to do so would be a dis-service to you.


I answered the above quote in my PM to you. You are dishonest with everyone here and worst of all with yourself. You are a liar and a coward when you impute things to me that I never said. You make yourself God, and that is a pitiful thing indeed. You are a mindless reprobate, and no amount of truth or facts will ever penetrate your willfully hardened heart. One day you will stand before God, as we all will. You will also be reminded of the many times you had the chance to repent and failed to do so. Your blood is on your hands not mine.

NO ONE EVER SAID ANYONE WAS ANY LESS MORAL THAN ANOTHER JUST BECAUSE THEY DO NOT BELIEVE MORALS COME FROM GOD. YOU LIE WHEN YOU STATE THAT I SAID THIS! WE ARE ALL IMMORAL TO THE SAME DEGREE. The only difference is, is that Christians are forgiven.


I am glad of one thing. I am friends with quite a few pagans and non-believers. We have always been able to discuss anything without rancor or violent out bursts like you are prone to. We respect each other, and are friends instipe of our differences. You fail in that area too.

Be glad that The Father is changing me, as I could easily shred any and all of your mindless posts merely using logic. You are not the intellect you seem to feel you are, Chelloveck has that, and you do not.. Far from it, you are just a small bitter hate-filled person that unfortunately won't change or leave others alone. Please feel free to spew your hate-filled socialist vomit as much as you wish, as I will not further cast pearls before swine. That's Christianese for you too are on Ignore.

jim

 

bLah , bal bla again Jim. Sorry but you passed judgement on folks the second you opened your yap and made the claim that one can not have Morals without a belief in YOUR Deity.


And of course NOW you give us an example of your FINE debate skill and mastery of Ad Hominem , alll while you're backpeddling and saying " I didn't say what i SAID'...


And then of course it's on to the usual DRIVEL of those who can't construct a rational arguement , " You're a socialist , you're bitter" bal blahablaBLABBETY.


I'm a " liar and a coward".....where did I lie clown? Kindly highlight that and repost it for all to see?

Coward? BWAHAHAHHAAAA...like YOU starting something 'cause ya figure you're gonna get over and them cutting and running? That kind of cowardly?

Like the ******** above after an actual discussion developed? That kind of cowardly.


And then of course the " One day you will astand" crap , no I won't sp spare me your abusive rhetoric.

See *YOU demonstrate handily what's gone wrong with religion in America , your little hatefilled screed above is NO different than the same crap coming from Radical Islam.


" Easily shred your posts using logic"... if you could have done so you would have done so , so say the useless pecker waving. And then of course we come to " violent outbursts" , CHRISTIANESE for " if you don't agree with me I'll claim anything to attempt to taint you. '


And of course you'll put me on ignore , it will allow you to avoid the questions and issues and give you the opportunity to feel " superior".....


So ya got anything else BOY , anything besides the personally oriented hyperbole that's gotten old and tired?


But get something straight Jimmuh , *you* don't give me orders and your HELL will freeze over before I *ever* submit to ******** like the above.


And guess what clown , when and if the crunch comes , well a " Goblin" wearing a Crucifix will get shot just as fast as any other Goblin.

Now are you done yet BOY , didn't want to actually discuss the Bible or anything else did ya , just the usual chest pounding by another adherent who hasn't even actually read the Bible and who wishes to play BULLY and dictate to folks how they are to believe.

Good luck with that ya punk.

 

You're in error on several points. Along with the usual " you misunderstand" sctick and the usual self superior overtones delivered to the unbeliever.

NO I don't misunderstand , nor do I base stance on the Covenant issues on the rhetoric/hyperbole of a single denomination.

 

Perhaps they walk by you everyday. But, philosophers have conned people into believing there are no differences in humans. If evolution were to be happening, the changes would be so small that we wouldn't notice....like a glacier.

 

A possibility for sure.
jim

 

So Minuteman , you consider Michael Travesser to be MORAL , just not Ethical...............he diddles underage girls and he's MORAL? Don't split hairs with me. And I don't care what you and your book say , jackasses such as Travesser should be floating.

And don't hand me that " strength of the spirit and conviction " crap as if it held true across Christians as a body , that's individualistic , not a group phenomenon.


And could you dispense with the " Xtians GOOd , others LESSER" bleating , it's the same regardless of how you try to doll it up and it's an inherently divisive construct , but that's what's wanted isn't it?

To divide a group off from the main flock and convince them that they're " special " and have " the truth" Thereby justifying their attitudes towards and abuses of the " UnBelievers "..........


Oh and I see from your rhetoric that you're headed towards " pick and choose" theology as regards the sticky thornball of the Covenant , won't work , didn't work for Meyer , didn't work for the Murrays , didn't work for ANY of the SDA " biggies" at Andrews or Loma Linda. But hey go ahead and try it.


And I've previously stated that it's the applicatory model , so don't act like you " discovered" it.


And then we come to the one that you sort can never get around , that being FREE WILL...........modern proselytisers HATE it , because folks ***don't have*** to stand still for their nattering ******** , nor do they HAVE to " accept God"...........though the majority of Fundy types would quite willingly FORCE their beliefs on others through whatever force and coercive tactic necessary , including the social and financial. Don't even bother to argue it , I have too many examples of ruined lives from too many different denominations and sects.


I moved clear across the country , several times. And was pursued at length by " good christians" with their mob/hate on and have seen them treat others who " left the fold" in similar fashion , in addition I have seen YOUR rhetoric along with Jim2 and Larry's pursued in real life to the NTH degree right to the actual SOCIAL abuse , the ostracisation and the financial hardship visited upon people because they quite simply ***were not Christian**** or because they were the ***wrong*** kind of Christian.

See in the end the vast majority of non Christians I meet are pretty much live and let live , a certain cadre of Xtians ***aren't*** , they're as much " convert or die or you're a Dhimmi" as any given Islamic fanatic and only too willing to attempt to ram their doctrine down ones throat.

Which brings us back around to free Will , I don't have to accept " God" and I also don't have to put up with a lot of crap from folks based on whether I do so or not.

I accept an individual or don't based on **their* merits , not on which Theology , Flag or Ideology they happen to be waving.


And frankly *so far* the alleged Christian arguement in this amounts to the same old " well you're an unbeliever so of course you're XYZ " crap along with the usual " look down your nose " smugly self-superior schtick.


Tell ya what folks , this *could* have been a rational and logical discussion , it MIGHT be. But NOT if the Xtians present don't dispense with all the unproveable postulations about others based SOLELY upon the thin criteria of whether one chooses to worship a given deity.

Oh and that " error in interpretation and eschatology" , hhmmmm who else says that and utilises that crutch? Or should I just ask what shill television preacher *doesn't* use that one? Prooftexting won't get anybody anywhere.

Oh and to shortcut prior to it's use , the " Complete word of God in Inerrancy and All Truth" line? Don't use it , unless of course you want to be reminded of " not one jot or tittle" and subsequently get a crash course in HOW it's been changed to suit various folks fancies.


Now *again* and as I have stated previously , modern Christianity is so far from the Biblical model as to be well nigh unrecognisable , it no longer is oriented towards those who actually have need of Hope and Grace , nor towards spreading the Word , it has become a Ponzi Scheme in many cases. A method of exploiting cash and power upon the backs of the poorest and least educated of many societies.

Offers of " help " predicated upon " acceptance " of and becoming XYZ denomination of Christianity..................and meanwhile " back home" , the " Conference Presidents " are arriving in limos and wearing suits that could feed a 3rd world mission village for a month.



As I stated , I'm quite willing for this to be a rational discussion. But the usual sort of demonisation of the given non-Christian who dares to speak out is well underway , the same old hackneyed cliche' accusations that by now elicit nothing more than a shrug.


Now lets just cut to the chase , until Christianity as a whole entity cleans up it's own house it has NO business dictating " Morals " to others , ( by the way Jimmuh NONE of this had diddly to do with Socialism....we can discuss that too).......

The lynchpin question being the one asked about the morals of Ted Haggard...........via the current Fundie criteria he's " immoral " , and in point of fact by MOST of the worlds criteria he's a pretty immoral fella , being caught with a buncha meth and a male hooker in a motel room would kinda indicate that.........


So what's he doing back in the pulpit?

 

Here , lets just get this out in the open so folks get some perspective and others know exactly where they stand.


I was born into fundamentalist Pentacostalism , I went from that to radical , fundamentalist Adventism.