Massad Ayoob Pers. Def. TV..... Rant On!

Anybody that thinks Massads A-Boob is an expert, needs to seriously re-evaluate themselves.

I read the magazine article, written by the A-boob, where he declared how experienced he was, and how the courts called him an expert witness. He said, and I quote, "I'm and expert witness," "because the courts say I am."

I suggested that those who think the A-boob, is so great, to read his Miami FBI shoot out article, with all of it's factual errors.

After reading his article, and the comments on it, if you are still impressed with the A-boob, then yes, you are easily impressed...!

Before you get your tender feelings hurt, I said on "most" forums. I know many people who have read one survival book, or registered and have posted, on one survival forum, and they are instant experts.

I judge people by what they write, which is all we will probably ever know about one another.

Do you think that everyone on this forum is greatly experienced?

I was into preparedness, even before I met Mel Tappan in 1973.

If you can find a copy of the first edition of his book "Survival Guns," look and see who he mentioned in the dedication... Two of the three people mentioned, were Arnold and Bill Capone, I am the other one he mentioned.

Then because of my familiarity with southern Oregon and it's environs, Mel moved to the Rogue River area.

Except for the possibility of the break-down of government during a serious SHTF scenario, preparedness, except for caching, is really just pioneer preparing and living...

Living as the colonial people lived, when they lived far from town.

Living as the trappers did, in the west, during the Fur Trade.

Living as the early ranchers, as my grandfather (1850-1950) did, as a rancher in Montana, after he arrived there from missouri, in 1866.

The early colonials and the western pioneers even had their bug out scenarios for when they were beset by Indians and bad men. The only thing that has changed, is that now we face the prospect of an unfriendly federal government.

My mother and Uncle born in 1905 and 1908, were brought up in the pioneer way of living. They stored food during year, so they could have plenty of food during the winter and early spring.

Is that different than storing food stuffs now? There are better, and more convenient food stuffs now. That might be the only change. I still have my grandfathers old grain mill, which he purchased sometime in the 1870's. I even have his original meat saw, which he purchased in the same era.

It was because they were raised this way, that they continued living this way. How do you think they made it through the Great Depression?

They raised me the same way... I have been storing food and other supplies all of my life. Always being prepared, for eventualities. I taught my wife, a San Antonio, TX, city girl, how to can foods and to jerk meat. I have even taught her how to start a fire with flint and steel.

There are trekking groups all over the United States. A trekking group is just a bunch of primitive living enthusiasts, who get together and travel a distance, usually on horse back.

I started a trekking group in the early 1970's. There are still ten of us actively involved. twice a year, we trek like the Lewis and Clark expedition did in 1803. We do one long trek a year, and a shorter more local trek. We take no modern equipment.

Do you see why I think prepardness forum posters are mostly without experienced. Do you see why I think they're neophytes, and easily impressed?

Smooth your ruffled feathers, and don't be so sensitive. I didn't mention your name did I?

Want to walk a few miles in my preparedness shoes?

Bill

 

I never once said that Massad was an expert, but I do see your point also.

You didn't ruffle my feathers any, because my fuse is slow burning. Sorry I really would rather not walk any more miles than I have to because I've had 5 surgeries on my left knee already and I will at some point need a knee replacement done. Heck my wife has a hard time getting me to even walk the dog anywhere.......even though the dog and I could both use the exercise.

Con

 

They all have merits and some have a lot of flaws. MA may have a lot to offer to some folks, maybe to a new shooter or maybe to refine some skills in an experienced shooter. See Course work like what he instructs as do MANY now a days is more of continuing education in a way.
I've seen a lot of "experts" on film really do or pull stupid stuff that will not work in "real" life.
The advice many give doesn't make sense for most folks, as it is tailored to what they "know" not what the class knows. I have a buddy who took one of Gabe's course's recently. While he learned alot he also said it most of the same ole' same ole everyone else has taught.
Many "gun" places are going "survival" as well . I find it funny really. They are tailoring it to a market to get some business.
For example for 450$ recently at a course in my AO you would be able to test your "gear" and shoot 200 rounds. In other words 450+$ for a 2 day boyscout course with some shooting! Of course during that time they will push their custom made man purse's and other tactical gear over what you have, of course its only available at their online store for the low price of........

When you get training you need to take away what you can use and adapt it to your environment. Doesn't matter who is teaching or what the subject matter is.

 

Ayoob has a point it doesn't matter what he thinks of himself it is what the courts think for him to be considered a Expert witness and he leaves it at that .

Now you on the other hand go on and on about your years as a Survivalist and who you use to know who by the way is long dead etc. etc. and how you're a survivalist God or something . Canning jams and jellys and going for nature hikes ain't no gunfighting no matter what you may imagine .

Ayoob may teach things beyond your ability to learn , but he isn't calling himself an expert at anything while that is exactly what you're doing in insulting him .

His expertise is in the use of deadly force and the related subjects through not only experience but study for decades and sharing of information with others often with far more notoriety than he .

I suppose next because you people don't have skills at point shooting you'll be bashing on legends like Jim Cirillo , Fairborn and Applegate ,no doubt they were a bunch of Boobs too ?

 

I think he qualifies as an "expert". He teaches what has worked for him and if you learn it correctly, might or might not work for you but that's the nature of armed or unarmed conflict and not the televised teacher.There is nothing guaranteed or fool-proof about any defensive technique because of the simple fact that by nature, it involves an aggressor that you do not have a clue about other than probabilities. The training you have had increases your likely-hood of a successful survival because of a number of reasons:
1. Learning to use a hammer to drive nails opens up a variety of other useful functions for the tool.
2. Thinking that "I can drive that nail" lends confidence to a terrifying experience.
3. If it works (you survive) then it was a success.
4. If you have trained for several "probabilities" then it is likely that one of them or a combination of them will help extricate you from a dire situation.
As a marine salvage "expert" I often get criticized by my peers for the method that I select but somebody has to decide what to do and how to proceed. Some of them probably call me a "boob" but at the end of the day, if what I do succeeds, then I get paid and they don't.

 

is not...


(purely "ad hominem" rant follows):

Stillwater:
"So and so, is completely wrong because I say so...carries about zero weight..The simple fact you can't/didn't recognize that further diminishes the argument.

So Ayoob is not an "expert"( does anybody have a definition of expert?); because you knew mel tappan? Somebody please Assign Mr.stillwater his position of most high exalted grandpoobah Monkey so we can quit arguing and get on with life. After all he's earned it...
feelin' it yet? (you've been promoted).

We are all idiots; what were we thinking???
What a bunch of b.s. Careful there; that whole "judgement thing" works both ways. You could be a current working instructor at the air force survival school at Fairchild AFB. And whatever credibility you may have built to establish your "expertise" here ( with me any way) is gone...Simply by dropping names and demanding a position of respect. We've seen plenty of your kind come and (thankfully) go...
"LAPD friend" Hartage? Is that you???

 

ex= has been
spurt=drip under pressure
very nice "G", forgot about that one..
Sorry about the rant (I have over developed my tendency to resist claims of "authority" at any level ).

 

I would guess that reading with comprehension, is a long forgotten task...!

I was doing my style of survival preparedness many years before I met Mel Tappan.

I met Mel, when he brought a butchered Colt Commander into the gun shop where I worked, to be reworked. Another gunsmith's multiple errors almost damaged the Colt beyond repair.

The shop I worked in was considered one of the best places to have a Colt 1911 worked on. This shop was known as King Gun Works. If you know anything about the Colt 1911, you will know that name.

If you know much about combat shooting, and the Colt 1911, then the names Jeff Cooper and Jim Hoag should mean something to you. Jim Hoag was Jeff Coopers favorite 1911 builder. Jim Hoag worked at Kings Gun Works from 1962 until 1975, when he left to start his own gunsmithing business, Hoag Gun Works @ (818) 998-1510, in Canoga Park, CA. Call him and ask him about the above.

I disagreed with almost everything Mel said about his concept of a survival retreat. His idea of a retreat, was a retreat that would be a fortress, without an escape route.

I agreed with Mel about his thoughts on firearms and survival equipment, but not his retreat. Mel Tappan, a diabetic, was confined to a wheel chair when I met him, completely unable to get around without his wheel chair.

Mel, confined to his wheel chair, would be completely unable to escape and evade. This condition was probably why he thought up the idea of a fortified retreat.

As a combat veteran, I know how long a hardened emplacement will last under an assault. It will not last very long without supporting infantry, to keep the emplacement from being out-flanked.

I disagreed with him about his concept of people banding together to survive, as a group when TSHTF... A group of people, working together are only as strong as the person who is their weakest link. Sooner or later, in a survival group, when in a survival situation, somebody is going to break down. Somebody will not be able to stand the presssure. Someone will go belly-up.

Chances are, someone in your group may rat-you-out, for their own benefit...! It's human nature...!

Bill

 

From what I've seen, a lot of techniques that look real are fake, and the ones that look fake are real...i.e. showing how to do something that works really well tends to look stupid.

 

This thread got resurrected from the dead after a year and a half.

I'm going to try one final time to explain why, the technique I saw Ayoob demonstrate, does not work. I wish I could videotape it and post it, because it's so hard to explain without demonstration, but here goes.


Begin!


Ayoob is facing the attacker. The attacker launches into a punch, Ayoob sidesteps the punch and simultaneously deflects the punch inward with his flashlight.

STOP!

Simple physics and common sense will tell you can only do this if you knew exactly what the attacker was going to do, becuase, as we all know, action is faster than reaction. By the time you are able to determine how exactly your being attacked (where the punch is coming), the attack is at least half way there..... SO.... you have to react to this with a much smaller quicker movement, you don't have time to move all the way to the side of the person. Ayoobs first counter move takes more time and movement than the original attack, So, NECESSARILY, the counter WILL NOT WORK!!

Now overlook this breach of physics and timespace as if it's still possible and continue.

GO!

Ayoob says, "Now that you're in this position" (to the side of the attacker with his arm still hanging in mid-punch) "You can do this".

STOP!

People.... I have been punched, literally, thousands of times. And NEVER ONCE has anyone frozen in the middle of their punch and awaited my next move.

So now that Ayoob has accomplished about 3 times the physical movements in the same amount of time his attacker has been only able to get halfway through a punch, let's completely ignore this breach of reality and continue once more.

GO!

Ayoob then loops his flashlight under the still moving arm of the attacker, then around his arm completely, grabbing the flashlight with his other hand, and putting the attacker in a good control position.

STOP!

To extend your arm/with the flashlight under and around the punching arm of an attacker and basically placing your weapon in the middle of his chest where he can grab it with both hands and wrench it from yours is beyond stupid.

The only world where this technique works is the imaginary world where attackers stop in the middle of their attack to await multiple movements from defenders with the reflexes and speed of a Jedi Knight or Spiderman.

NOW

I believe, given that Ayoob was teaching this technique, that he is not a good source of training on the subject. If he got this scenario so obviously wrong, it's very likely he will get others wrong as well. Does that mean he doesn't have some good information? No. He may have a lot of good advice to give, but know that some of it will be unrealistic and it is, at best, a waste of your time to learn. At it's worst, it's dangerously irresponsible to teach people defense techniques that could get them killed should the need to defend themselves ever arise.



As I mentioned in the op, the guy from Vallhalla that regularly appears on the show has never, as far as I've seen, breached any laws of physics or time while discussing techniques. He seems incredibly competant and knowledgable and applies reality to everything he teaches.

 

Blackjack thats what caused you to insult one of the most successful and respected self defense teachers in the country ?

You're so far off base you ain't even playing baseball !

Not only am I sure I've seen the episode you speak of but I have seen the technique done and it worked just as Ayoob described leaving the "Attacker" in the complete control of the defender in a flashlight retention hold .

I was in a favorite bar about 20 years or so ago and some drunk obnoxious azz was bothering some women to the point they asked a waitress to get them some help , when the bouncer tried to convince the guy to just leave them alone or he would have to leave the building the drunk decide to throw a punch which was obviously expected .

He was in the hold in about 3 seconds and on his way out the door .

Now admittedly the bouncer was a young very fit and tall man "fighting" a pretty drunk almost middle aged out of shape joke but never the less it worked .

When I had the chance I asked the guy where he learned that and he said it was a common martial arts technique he learned years ago and still practiced . He did say though it was one in which you need to have excellent reflexes and practice at .

I had a friend/coworker who was a bouncer about 15 years ago and you would probably be amazed at the various takedown/retention techniques those guys know using a Mag/flashlight so they don't have to beat some drunks butt , lose their jobs and get them and their employers sued .

 

Ok, you found the problem..... It works IF your a Jedi, Spiderman, OR the attacker is EXTREMELY Drunk. I never trained to get the upper hand on impaired people, and if you do, you'll lose. No, I take that back., it still doesn't work... you're friend may have used that particular control technique with his flashlight, but he did not implement it the way Ayoob did. I don't know this because I was there watching your friend, or because I can read your mind, I know this the same way I know that if I throw a ball up in the air, it will come down. Physics and reality, and I've been there.

Yes, the final control technique works once you have it locked in, it was a very popular technique in corrections and with just about every police department, my problem, is how Ayoob got there. No, you're friend didn't do it just like Ayoob. He did it better than Ayoob's demonstration, because what your friend did actually worked, and if you're friend has been a bouncer for a long time, even though he probably hasn't written a book, he's probably much better at these techniques than Ayoob is. You're friend would be a good one to learn from.

Actually, Big, I wouldn't be amazed. I didn't decide to rant about Ayoob as someone who wasn't familiar with the subject. When I said I had been punched "thousands" of times.... that's a very conservative estimate. I haven't had the number of firearm confrontations of Ayoob, and he may or may not be worthy of respect as a teacher in that regard, but I guarantee I've got 20 times his experience in non-firearm situations. I don't care how "well respected" he is, he's wrong (in this specific case).

 

An acquaintance of mine owns a chain of Taekwondo schools in this area, he's a 4th degree black belt. He's one of the most respected "martial artists" in the region and teaches hundreds of people how to fight.

I'll never forget what he told me when I asked how his UFC tryout went. He said.... "Not good, I got knocked out in the first round. I've never been hit flush on the chin before". He had never actually been in a fight!

LOL, that's right, he's a well respected teacher and EXPERT on fighting that didn't know what it was like to get hit on the chin. I'm waiting for him to write a book...lol.

 

I've only had one interaction with Ayoob via email a few years back and his response was satisfying. As to his actual hand to hand methods, I can't say, never had the opportunity to see him in action. All I can say is he gave a satisfactory response and I consider him to be a gentleman.

I'm not one to stroke anyone's ego, but I appreciated the fact he took the time to personally reply to me.

As to watching mock setup fights that are predictable in the out come, I think there might be some merit, but unless you actually try it in a real or even a staged fight among two unknown combatants, where punches actually get traded, it's just play acting. I've had some self-defense training, hands on and things don't always work out the way they are planned.

 

This may be a little off subject because I just got a tape of Ayoob and have not watched it all the way through. I tool Kali and Silat classes for years and always hated when you would get to the knife disarms. There is just no way you can do those and not get cut. Then I found a teacher who was finally honest, if you're in a kife fight you're going to get cut, you're going to bleed, get over it. As far as anything else, I don't go to a class unless there is sparring, full out, no points or anything like that. I've never had someone try to take my head off but I've had enough bloody noses and black eyes. That being said, I'll reserve my judgement of Ayoob as I haven't seen the full tape yet. But I've certainly seen experts teach things that won't work.

 

Too bad THR is in turmoil, I enjoy his info. If you don't like one of his techniques just disregard it and practice the things that you do like. No biggie. Nobody's perfect. By the way is that channel on DTV?