Is Torture Acceptable?

My closest friend was an Air Force Pilot Rescue Team member during the Viet Nam War. He is the most moral Christian man that I have ever had the honor of calling my friend. We had this debate yesterday. He recounted tying a prisoner by his ankles and dragging him through the tree-tops with their chopper to extract information about the location of two downed pilots that had been captured. They got their information and rescued one of the pilots, the second pilot was dismembered by his captors before they got to him. This would be a tough call for anyone to make and I certainly understand the individual making an expedient decision to do what is necessary to protect his Band of Brothers. I know that my friend is still bearing the heavy burden of this decision forty years later, even though God has forgiven him. I respect the decision he made to go against his Christian upbringing to save a life but I still do not condone this practice. If it were my family, I would without hesitation, make a dire decision such as that, but I still cannot compromise my moral values and accept our elected Government as a matter of policy, practicing any violation of our precious Constitutional standards. If it becomes necessary to expedite a situation, don't ask-don't tell and by all means, observe the CNN rule! And most importantly, make your peace with God and ask forgiveness because you will never completely rectify your decisions here on earth.

I say that I understand the desire to expedite and might engage in such a practice myself, if prevailed, but I would not under any circumstance, go to my job each morning, have coffee with the guys around the break room, pull on my rubber gloves and begin pulling finger-nails from a suspected terrorist sent to my torture cubicle by some bureaucratic process defining his need to be subjected to enhanced interrogation techniques, and don't fool yourself and think that there are not people on the payroll that are doing that very thing each day in the name of homeland Security.

 

Quote Seacowboys":

"but I would not under any circumstance, go to my job each morning, have coffee with the guys around the break room, pull on my rubber gloves and begin pulling finger-nails from a suspected terrorist sent to my torture cubical by some beurocratic process defining his need to be subjected to enhanced interogation techniques, and don't fool yourself and think that there are not people on the payroll that are doing that very thing each day in the name of homeland Security."

Stipulated:
As: we can each be declared: "domestic terrorists" or at a minimum "constitutional extremists" for harboring a deep abiding respect for the constitution and the ideals this country is based on: the above is a particularly unsettling thought.

Since Booosch started the "anybody ah say is an "enemy combattant" and can be scooped up with no legal representation and held with no right of habeus corpus. The gloves come off.
Everybody obviously agrees if their kids were buried in a plywood box in the forest with 24hrs of air: they'd show liitle remorse for torturing the location out of the inhuman pile of offal who collected the ransom, but life is seldom as clear cut a case of right and wrong (good guys and bad guys) like a movie; and people in power use that kind of power against those who oppose their agenda. Our govt has proven to show little regard for the solidity of the legal rights of its citizens; and IMHO has proven itself too irresponsible to being legally granted the powers to inflict such heinous treatment on "terrrorists" because the definition of "terrorist" is subject to change.

 

I am a Constitutionalist. I support and believe in that document without any reservations or conditionals. I actively fight to promote the protection of and return to our unfettered Bill of Rights. Any acceptance of usurpation of this principle would compromise my belief and negate any effort at preservation as hypocrisy, regardless of collateral damage. I would rather see ten guilty go unpunished than one innocent wrongly destroyed. I am not one of those "touchy-feely" green people; I would have no reservations about pulling the nails out of a convicted (operative word) terrorist. It is the process of allowing our government to create a policy where civil servants may launch fishing expeditions violating these principles with no regards for any of our rights that is unacceptable under any flag waving banner. Our system is not perfect, was not designed to be perfect, but still stands heads above the rest of man-kind's history as coming closest to being perfect. It is what our Flag stands for. It is the ONLY thing that lends honor to those that have died in defense of it. If we remove this honor, every child of ours that died saving us from Sadam's "Weapons of Mass Destruction" becomes a bad joke. How can anyone take pride in defending our Freedom, when there is no Freedom to defend? I demand this "Honor" be respected in the name of every man and woman in our nation that did their duty believing they were defending this principle!

 

As a retired NCO, I must state the following. Since it is common knowledge that it is NCO's who train junior officers, and keep them alive. IMHO NCO's make many many critical decisions. Who closer to the problem with actual experience and insight? and, Who more has the right?

 

The Classic argument against the 15,000 mile long screwdriver or (running a distant war from the oval office).I believe We learned with Johnson and McNamara that wasn't a good idea; I agree men on the ground are in the best position to make such decisions. So IMHO what you are saying has merit.

Imho The issue: You trust your training, experience , morals, scruples and instinct( as rightly you should). You lived through the age where torture in any connotation was deemed a horrible injustice, perpetrated by low life enemies of humanity (Pol Pot,Giap, the cosa nostra etc.),
I believe the problems manifest when we are discussing "policy and law" which applies to all the newly recruited Jack Bauier wanna-be spooks with a self ordained mission to save the world. Folks possibly without so much moral experience and restraint.
Just because you as an experienced NCO on the ground would use it judiciously doesn't mean some wet behind the ears skull and bones "yaley" with a fetish for tom clancy novels will do the same.

IMHO and we are beating the philly to a pulp here,

IMHO : "No" vote to make it legal; "no" vote : to make it national policy.
I'm done here ( said my peace; feel free to disagree).....

 

This has certainly been an interesting debate filled with thought, commitment, and passion. I do not believe there is a definitive answer nor do I believe there is any answer without exceptions. I would like to thank each of you for your comments.
For those of you that pray, lets join together in thanks that it hasn't crossed our door-step yet and that it stays in the dark corners and shadows well away from our friends and family.

 

Thank you Sea , you can be far more "eloquent" than your waterfront lifestyle might otherwise infer (Yup, I think that came out as a compliment) Speaking of thought provoking well written responses, Minuteman has been conspicuous by his silence on this hot button issue:

What say ye parson? finger nail extraction or burning at the Stake?
Time for a reading from the book of python?:
We've caught a "terrorist"
can we burn her?
What makes you think she's a terrorist?
"well look at her"
YouTube- She's a witch!

 

Torture never proved anything, except making people say anything that the torturers wanted to hear, truthfull or otherwise.
The most un effective way to get intel.

 

As usual, MM, a well thought out response to a difficult problem. Popular will not be mentioned in the survival manual for our Republic. My gut says to torture the bastards, but my love for our system says trust it and defend it against all enemies foreign, domestic, and popular opinion.

 

Minuteman, please escuse the massive deletions, and the pick and choose method of quotation. I mean no misrepresentation or disrespect. I only wanted to comment on these areas.

First off I think on one point we on this forum are going to have to agree to disagree. That being whether or not waterboarding is torture. I myself have not been waterboarded. I have several friends from my time in service who were. All are leading normal productive lives afterwards. No lasting physical or mental harm whatsoever. I have heard no one here say that they have been waterboarded by our government, and that thus in their opinion IT IS TORTURE.

Second, that said, I DO NOT CONDONE GOVERNMENT SPONSORED TORTURE.

And lastly, I believe that many sane men and women who fully understand right and wrong do disobey laws on a daily basis for a variety of reasons.... all the while knowing if caught that they will be punished in some way. They accept all that willingly because they thing what they were doing was not.... all that wrong.... and thus, are willing to accept the consequences. I believe that an individual committing torture in the heat of the moment fully knows that it is wrong then as well, and that they may have to answer for it in the future. They accept that. Chances are it is one on one and the only one they will have to answer to is God. In this country I believe you still have the right of "innocent until proven guilty by a jury of your peers". and, no requirement to self incriminate or testify when accused either.

 

Just for the sake of discussion, please tac don't take this as a personal attack or an attack on your position.:
I agree there has to be shades of grey in fallible human endeavors (real life) but:
" A little bit wrong , a little white lie, a little mental torture, a little bit pregnant?
These waterboard veterans may not show any damage but if I run a red light and get ticketed a block away, I still ran the red light (comitted a crime)(whether it caused real harm or not).

 

Is waterboarding "torture"?
We're back to the dispicable Mr. Clinton: "Sir, is there a sexual relationship?"
"depends on what your defintion of "is" is ...

"Torture" is illegal so we'll call it "enhanced interrogation" , as Bush vehemently stated "the United States DOES NOT TORTURE"!! ! May have satified jsp, but we all know they just conveniently changed the Definition of "torture."
FBI's self written search warrants were originally FOR "FINANCIAL INSTITUTIONS".. everybody said "ohhhh ok, thats reasonable"; then in 2004 buried in a deep boring financial act they've defined "financial institution" to be: a bank, a credit union, a delicatissent, a gym, a barbershop, your lawyer's office, your isp etc... and nobody caught it ( from judge Napolitano's speech posted elsewhere on the monkey). Just so much Doublespeak from the ministry of love..
No thanks I can do without the "Testicular electrical stimulation for conversational expedience." program.
Or the govt's "Free mandatory "inverted Sinus irrigation (flushing) in the interest of upper respiratory health and conversational expedience."

 

Tango3, my friend! Each of us INDIVIDUALS, must have certain thoughts and beliefs they firmly hold to. These individuals are not weak blades of grass swaying in the wind, but more like solid mighty grand old live oaks firmly rooted to God's great earth. At one time in my military service I discussed SERE training (which included waterboarding) in great length and detail with men who had gone thru the training. I had submitted a transfer request to Non-rotating anphibious forces Vietnam. AKA brown water navy or small boats. Where John Kerry served his 3 months or whatever. If the transfer request was approved I could expect to go to SERE training before being sent to small boats. All who I talked to assured me I could get thru it. None of them referred to waterboarding as torture. No one on this thread has stepped forward and stated, "I have been to SERE training. I have been waterboarded, and IT IS TORTURE!" Thus, I hold firm in my belief that waterboarding is not torture. That is the point upon which I guess that the polar opposites on this thread will have to agree to disagree. I hold no ill will or animosity towards anyone who disagrees with me, for that is their right. I respect and accept theirs, they should do the same.

 

I think you can guess my feelings on the matter, actually it is better that you guess so I do not have to incriminate myself before I testify on the hill.

Waterboarding is for pussies. I prefer chemical injection torture, torture using a defibrillator, and the occasional showing a terrorist of a video of his kid being executed has worked for me.

 

OKay Tac; we agree to disagree; I haven't personally cut my nuts off with a nail clipper either but I think it would be most unpleasant!
We'll cut cards over shots of jack Daniels sometime to "settle it".... Good discussion.

Can "torture" even be defined?
( A long week end watching "chick flicks" with the spouse and no beer in the fridge?
Standing up under the withering glare of the boss in his office?
Watching this country slowly circle the drain,while glassy- eyed baying cattle chant "yes we can"???)
Can everyone or anyone define "torture"?
Can we define right or wrong?
"Legal or illegal" seems to be possible.
can we define the limits to government?

 

OKay Tac; we agree to disagree; We'll cut cards over shots of jack Daniels sometime to "settle it".... Good discussion.

As an old sailor I look forward to doing that. I will acquire a 12 year aged bottle of Nicaraguan "Flora de Cana" rum and bring it as well. Undeniable the world's smoothest rum!

 

As you were "swabby"! there'll be no "settle it " necessary;, "everybody jes' goes forward holding their own convictions and all is happy!
(but I do like Rum...)