I feel shame for my country by the Hong Kong protests.

Aspects of stuff Folks
Many are about . Long watch ! I open
S

 

As I remember there was dancing in the streets of Hong Kong when the British handed it over to China, granted there were a few people that wanted to leave but they were in a minority. Mostly they were happy to be part of China again. We all knew, or should have known, how this was going to end. I also remember some people saying that the USA, and others, should have been handing out visas on street corners...but that never happened.

 

1861....oh, you mean the war of Northern Aggression! At least that's what it's known as in the South.

 

This is turning into a bigger and bigger poop storm.

 

I have to disagree with you on this. WWII at least was probably the most justified war in history for America. The Nazi's were bent ruling the Western world to include America eventually. Stopping them in Europe was the best option to protect America from a devastating war at home. Image the fighting the Nazi's without the Allies along side us, yes we would have won eventually, but our losses in men and treasure would have been cripplingly higher in the end. Not to mention the pure evil that was the Third Reich.

 

Sorry, I am in total disagreement with you. My father was a real war WW2 hero, actually went on to do over 30+ years in the Navy and my entire family fought on both fronts, all uncles were marines, soldiers, sailors and some didn't make it back. Hell, my grandmother had me watching 'Victory at Sea' when I was 5 years old! LOL! But, no...I cannot even begin to say WW2 was a justifiable war. It took many, many years for me to come to this conclusion and even then it wasn't easy but looking specifically at the facts...no, I cannot agree.

Basically, you're saying our participation in WW2 was justifiable because it was 'preemptive' to ensure Nazi Germany would not win and have the resources to attack us across two great oceans with a population and manufacturing base much, much smaller than ours and you are simply assuming this is want they wanted, that was their grand plan, their worldwide strategy.

I am normally in agreement with you, wideym; however, in this I cannot. This will be a long debate and frankly it is probably better that we agree to disagree. Why? Because it will take a very long time to overcome basis for either of us and in truth your opinion is the popular one which I myself held for most of my life and like I said it was extremely difficult to go against opinion and simply based mine on facts. And, I still find myself falling into that 'popular' trap at times but since I shot my mouth off...

First and foremost, your assumption doesn't pass the logic test. Think about what DID happen not what MIGHT have happened.
1. The Phoney war - when after Poland surrendered. Germany made numerous attempts again and again stating they did not want war with England and France. Hitler even admired England, that's clearly documented.
a. What actually brought Poland and Germany to blows? The lousy Versailles Treaty which took away most of Prussia (to include Danzig) and a lot of other points on the map. Germany wanted access, a corridor, to Konigsberg a major German city which the treaty landlocked.
b. So, why didn't Poland grant them reasonable access? They were indeed considering it until England got involved which also dragged France into it - both wanted a weak Germany and this was a perfect reason to block Germany reclaiming many of their territories lost under the treaty. Poland thinking England and France were serious in their offer of assistance told the Germans to 'Piss off!' and the rest is history to include England and France never even considered sending troops to assist the Poles. It was a bluff, to put it more correctly.
c. One other point commonly forgotten, is the Soviets also invaded and took half of Poland two weeks after the Germans did.

So, here we are at the end of 1939, WW2 in Europe was started by the invasion of Poland by Germany and the Soviets.
So, why didn't England and France declare war on the Soviets also? Hmm...that's certainly a bit of a puzzle that history doesn't talk about...? The Stalin realm was at least as evil as Hitler's and yet... And, at the end of WW2 what happened to Poland? So, the question we SHOULD be asking is was the invasion of Poland the real reason for the start of war in Europe?
In answer, I say no it was not...and if we continue this discourse I will try to explain what I think caused it but it's lengthily and doubtful I can convince you anyway so...I'll leave it for now.

But, all of this has nothing to do with the USA except our historic and cultural ties to England...which btw as of 2014 and the release of the Lusitania (1915) manifest shows England lied, schemed, and got us into WW1 by deception. Regardless, our historic and cultural ties to England are obvious...for better or worse.

I realize I am getting long-winded here but I wished to set the stage up to this point (1939) while pointing out that from the very beginning of WW2 there are so many holes in our historic beliefs that one must question them for fact due to 'the victors write the history' - meaning - their version of it - and there is much to question even at the beginning.

"WWII at least was probably the most justified war in history for America. The Nazi's were bent ruling the Western world to include America eventually."
I cannot think of any facts that support your statements above, assumptions, yes, facts no. Hitler even stated in Mein Kampf the East was his intent (lebensraum) - meaning - the Soviet Union. He said nothing about the West that I can think of... I believe he thought the West would come to his way of thinking, to his ideology...and that, while just another assumption, was a good possibility given the success Germany showed in just a few years.

2. The Germans never attacked us. A major portion of our population was German.

3. We had huge oceans to protect us. "Weak neighbors North and South and fish East and West" (Bismarck?)

4. Given the oceans and the state of technology, how many decades, scores, centuries would it have been before Germany could possibly attack the USA? Would the Nazi ideology survive that long? Doubtful. So we weren't attacked, we weren't threatened...so why did we get involved?

5. The Communist ideology was as evil (much more so if you go by body count) as Nazi ideology. We supported one mass murder over the next, in fact, in can be argued we supported the more dangerous of the two.

6. Both ideologizes died out, one at the end of a rifle barrel and one on its own, more than likely Nazism would have died on its own also in time...dictatorships normally don't last long.

7. The historical 'fact' that is stated over and over, "Hitler declared war on us after the Japanese bomb Pearl Harbor"
This is a true statement; however, even this 'fact' leads to more questions like...why do such a thing? Because he was a madman? Because he was allied to the Japanese? Maybe but they weren't helping him with the Soviets so...doubtful.

Documents coming out in the last few years show an entirely different picture of events concerning our entry into WW2 in Europe. First and foremost, is our own neutral navy protecting supply shipments to England and when I said - protect - I mean firing on German submarines not in defense but offensively. As a neutral country this is an act of war, not on one isolated occasion but as standard operating procedure - yet - Germany did not allow her submarines to engage American naval vessels because of the obvious reason. Hell, when it did happen those German Captains got a personal reprimand! I think a recently released document states the reason much more clear than anything else can: Hitler declared war because he was already at war with America. FDR was determine to have war with Germany to the point that he even had an American diplomat locked up in jail throughout the war by the Brits when these illegal happenings were discovered via documents flowing between FDR and Churchill...consider that for a second, an American diplomat incarcerated for years by the Brits, our allies.

We're discussing the WW2 European theater, specifically the Nazis, but what finally was the lynchpin to gets us into the World War was the Japanese bombing Pearl Harbor. And, frankly, IMHO, they were given no options by the oil embargo. Don't get me wrong, I am not saying it was right what they did, I am not, but even FDR stated that this would lead them to attack us. A sovereign nation deeply in war with another and we cut off the flow of oil to their war machine, left them with 18 months of reserves. And, it wasn't enough we stop selling oil but we got everyone else to stop also. Their options were submit, forgetting about their lost of lives, treasure and honor or destroy the American fleet which kept them from obtain the resources they required. I think FDR knew exactly what he was doing and did it anyway. Did he really think the Japanese would back down? Did we really care about the Chinese? We cared about the Chinese about as much as we cared about the Jews, the SS St. Louis comes to mind...

Anyway, I am way off topic and like I said, I know I would never be able to convince you because it took most of my life to convince myself! LOL! But, going strictly by facts - when you can even obtain them - our participation into WW2 was planned and orchestrated, certainly not justifiable by normal events or cause but simply because we wanted to do so...probably for ideological and financial reasons... The financial side is interesting aspect also when you consider it did pull us out of the Depression, turned us into the Super Power we are today, and for a while gave us world domination and on and on...lots of financial reasons to investigate.

Sorry for this decertation but it is a topic that truly interests me and one most folks simply brush off - but we shouldn't. America didn't want to get involved in another European war but - again - our government dragged us into it. Hell, given what has happened in the last few years should we not even question the possibility Pearl Harbor might have been planned and staged to turn out as it did? Many people think so...I think of 9/11 and WTC Building #7 and it at least makes me wonder. My grandmother, an America First, always said we were lied to about WW1 (which proved to be correct) and we were lied to about WW2 which slowly facts are vindicating her statement.

I guess I am saying and believe that assumptions about what a country will do in the future are not justifications for war...especially given a government's crystal ball is tainted to their own color...

And, because they were 'pure evil' truly could not have been the reason since FDR knew the Soviet Union killed off thousands of American citizens that went there (facts now show FDR knew), invaded Poland then executed ~22,000 Polish officers in the Katyn massacre (also facts our government knew or highly suspected) on and on and on...The Nazis hadn't done anything to anyone outside their own country. Stalin was a monster as was Hitler so...? Also, 'evil' is subjective, evil to one person is necessary to another...is it evil to firebomb a civilian population or necessary...but that's a different topic. Yes, understandably it's not all black and white but many shades of grey however when you really start digging into the history - well - it's full of holes...and much of it is lies - hell - most of the causes of war are lies (think the Maine, WW1, Tonkin Gulf, etc..). And, can we honestly say it is our place on the planet to police these other countries, to judge them if they are evil or good...?

In closing, I would ask this one question... What is a justifiably reason(s) for a nation to go to war?

 

hmmm.... IIRC after Japan attacked us and we declared war on Japan Hitler declare war on the U.S. so???

as to Hitler asking for peace and NOT wanting war... hmmm....

he failed terribly at keeping agreements and treaties so what makes anyone think he would honor his words?

IMHO it was inevitable... due to Hitlers mindset...

 

First of all, when you start out with the "My father was a real war WW2 hero" you come off as dismissive of all other families contribution to the war effort. Just about every family in America had male members serving in the Armed Forces and just about every female supporting the effort working in war industries. My own grandfather was a waist gunner on a B-17 who personally shot down at least one BF-109, wounded by anti aircraft fire when his plane was shot down over Verona Italy and spent 13 months as a POW. Awarded two Air Medals, Bronze Star for Valor, and a Purple Heart in addition to the regular "I was there" medals everyone else received.

The Phoney war statement is pure horse crap. Who care's if the Nazi's (yes Nazi, not Germany) sought peace with England after invading Poland. They invaded a sovereign nation after conspiring with the Soviet Union to split up Poland between themselves. Do you negotiate with the neighbor at the end of the block who kicks in the door of the neighbor in the middle of the block along with another neighbor and occupies it just because they wouldn't let them drive through their back yard? The Nazi's thought that the Allies would appease them like they did when they seized Austria and the Sudetenland, never mind that they always planned to eliminate the Soviet Union when possible.
The Versailles Treaty was a European punishment on Germany as it should have been considering the death and destruction they inflicted on Belgium, France, and England alone. Germany was practically untouched by the physical destruction of war and they were extremely lucky not to have been broken up and divided like the Ottoman Empire was after WWI. As to why the Allies didn't declare war on the Soviet Union, maybe because the Soviet Union would have to go through the Nazi countries first to attack them and they expected the Nazi's to move towards France since they nominally had a mutual cooperation pact with Stalin at the time and used it to great effect on Poland.

The Lusitania sinking by German U-boat.in WWI has nothing to do with WWII so I'm not sure why it's even relevant to the justification of America entering WWII. The (once again Nazi not Germany) Nazi's didn't attack us is disingenuous since they were attacking our shipping. There was not a "major portion of our population was German" prior to WWII. There were enclaves of Germans, just like there were enclaves of Irish, Poles, Chinese, etc....in every major city in America. The two major oceans to protect us fallacy is the same that could be said about the Nazi's, they had two major oceans to protect them from America. The "how many decades" argument is moot if America had been stuck it's head in the sand and said "That's a European problem not ours". Yes I totally agree that Communism is just as evil as Nazism, but the argument of Communism has killed more people is also disingenuous in that Communism has lasted much longer than the Nazi's government. If Nazism had survived and spread as far and wide as Communism you would have seen just as many if not more government sanctioned death as Communism. Dictatorships linger for far longer than you realize, they just seem to change from one strongman to another without ever going away and there are many counties around the world that are still under a dictatorial regime if not an individual.

Nazi U-boat commanders attacked American shipping on it's way to supply England. You might say that the fact we nominally sold material to England made us a target, but the fact remains that the Nazi's attacked US shipping. We have a right and duty to protect US flagged vessels in any water that are involved in commerce.

As you have stated "Hitler declared war because he was already at war with America". He declared war with America because of his pact with Imperial Japan. He could have easily broke with Japan and FDR would not have had a leg to stand on when declaring war on the Axis powers, we would have had to only deal with Japan and most likely stopped or at least severely reduced shipments to England.

Stalin and the Soviet Union was another evil that should have been defeated long before it took millions of innocent people with it and Communism still kills and oppresses millions of people to this day. I'm not okay with it and neither should anyone else be. I encourage my elected officials and everyday citizens to oppose Communism whenever and where ever they can. I cannot find this mysterious "FDR knew the Soviet Union killed off thousands of American citizens that went there" piece of trivia.

I have met and known people like you. You are a Nazi apologist, carefully omitting words like "Nazi" and replacing it with gentler words like "German". The other tactic is to blame other similar ideologies to take attention away from Nazi's. I've known people of German heritage who continually fall into this category because they don't want to feel bad about the shared heritage with Nazi's.

 

@wideym I will rebut and provide some answers and clarification that I think are pertinent but I do not want this to get into an vicious argument. I really don't and for my part, I won't. We're simply talking history here. I actually don't care one way since it is almost 80 years ago and nothing will change...but I do think in 25-50 more years and declassification of documents we'll learn a lot more...maybe, maybe not.

"First of all, when you start out with the "My father was a real war WW2 hero" you come off as dismissive of all other families"
Then please let me apologize because that certainly wasn't my intent. Conversing in this manner is sometimes difficult in that gestures, tone and etc. cannot be noted. My intent simply was to say that like most American families we were deeply involved with WW2 and that my heritage goes back before the war. I certainly intended no slight to anyone. Besides, whatever the reasons or cause of the war, once war was declared then nothing else mattered, we were stuck-in.

"The Phoney war statement is pure horse crap."
Maybe...but that's what it is called in the history books for that time period. Look it up.

"Nazi's thought that the Allies would appease them like they did when they seized Austria..."
Austria also voted to join Germany, almost unanimously, isn't that called 'self determination'?. The Sudetenland was a land grab, probably more like a factory grab for production...think I remember reading about the Skoda factories; nevertheless, hard to see it any other way. Same with Memel...

"...never mind that they always planned to eliminate the Soviet Union"
Yes, that was obvious from the start even though the two ideologies were very much alike in many ways...and on the other side of the coin, Stalin always intended to eliminate Germany and, by doing so, the Nazis. It was obvious they couldn't co-exist.

"...the Allies didn't declare war on the Soviet Union, maybe because..."
Nevertheless, my point is/was they only declared war on Germany which you must admit is damn odd, no? I wonder how they explained it back in 1939? I need to try and look that up some day...

"The Lusitania sinking by German U-boat.in WWI has nothing to do with WWII so I'm not sure why it's even relevant..."
It was the final lie that brought the US into WW1 and that lie has stood for almost a hundred years! It's relevancy is if they lied then could not more of history have been lies to get us involved, specifically WW2?

"You might say that the fact we nominally sold material to England made us a target, but the fact remains that the Nazi's attacked US shipping."
This is a legal question which neither of us can truthfully answer, at least, I certainly can't. Yes, we were neutrals yet we only traded with one side and through waters declared to be a war zone, through an embargo zone (or whatever they called it). But, you missed my point, I said we took 'offensive' actions not strictly 'defensive'. I would have to refresh my memory and look into this more if we continue to discuss it. Morally, I can understand your point, as if attacked a US vessel should defend itself; however, even today blockades are put into place during war and ships venture at their own risk...etc.

"He declared war with America because of his pact with Imperial Japan..."
That is the normal historic answer and certainly part of it but I don't think all of it.

"He could have easily broke with Japan and FDR would not have had a leg to stand on..."
Again, this is the popular opinion but I think the reasoning was it no longer matter as FDR would have found another way and soon... In truth, we'll never know.

"I cannot find this mysterious "FDR knew the Soviet Union killed off thousands of American citizens that went there" piece of trivia."
Quite recently there has been a lot of research done on this. Thousands of Americans during the Depression years took Stalin's offer to move there and help industrialize the Soviet Union. Unfortunately, they got caught up in the Great Purge. I think the best book is "The Forsaken: An American Tragedy in Stalin's Russia" (linked). Seems there is more coming out all the time about this 'mysterious piece of trivia'...the link for the Washington Examiner is from 1999 so this 'trivia' has been discussed for a while now.

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B002TZ3D80/?tag=survivalmonke-20
STALIN'S AMERICAN VICTIMS

"The Versailles Treaty was a European punishment on Germany as it should have been considering the death and destruction they inflicted on Belgium, France, and England alone.... Germany was practically untouched by the physical destruction of war..."
In this we are far apart, for I believe The Versailles Treaty was indeed one, if not, the most important catalyst for WW2, that both sides suffered 'death, destruction' and horrendous losses over an idiotic war caused by bad treaties and worse diplomacy, the Great Depression was another catalyst throwing the country into further turmoil which aided the rise of the Nazi party, and, yes, the battlefields (physical destruction) were mostly in France and Belgium, (England also was untouched) but Germany did suffer horrendously from the blockade (starvation) which even went on for close to a year after the war ended which didn't help during the Influenza epidemic either... anyway, we can't agree here so...onwards.

"I have met and known people like you. You are a Nazi apologist, carefully omitting words like "Nazi..."
WHOA! WHOA! WHOA! I'm a 'Nazi apologist' because I have my own opinion on certain aspects of WW2? Or, is it simple because I don't agree with the standard spoon-fed version of history? No, I am not. And, please let's not be rude and call me this again. It's an insult and I assure you I have not 'carefully admitted' any words to include the word 'Nazi' in our discussion. I frankly could care less about them and think they got what they deserved in the end. And, the word 'German' and 'Nazi' are the same in that era because the whole damn country was Nazi, they almost had to be. I do admit that I use the word Nazi when I'm specifically referring to their government and German more when referring to their country/people. Sorry if you find that offensive or troubling but in my mind they are the same...because they were.

I simply think we don't really know the true reasons for our entry into WW2. For the public and history books we were attacked and we responded, end of story, as history loves to pigeon-hole. However, on many things I think we Americans were lied to (again!) and, as such, I try to look at history with cold objectivity. That's it. As a child and even a young man, Churchill was my hero however as I grew older and studied more I grew to the opinion he was an idiotic aristocrat that got his country into something way over his/their head, something they couldn't win and America was needed to pull them out of it - again. This makes me even more distrustful of written history since he wrote a good portion of it. LOL!