Harbor freight solar panels

We have discovered, ( just noticed) that the railways systems are also utilising solar panels to run signals far from local towns!
We got to look inside one of thier boxes and noted, they have 2 small batteries, (motorcycle?) and a panel that looks to be in the 30-50 watt range. Hard to determine actual output from size! They are only about 18" x 24". I recently found a local sales for "used" panels in our area, ( about 50 miles south of us), and we can buy used 100 to 150 watt panels (guaranteed) for less than half of the price of new ones. ( $100 to $150) The guarantee may only be for a year, but they are in great shape, no damages, and they "test them" in front of you, before you even pay for them. Now, with our curent weather being a mix of clouds, rain and snow, coupled with wind...I decided to back-up our solar panels with wind generators.
Trouble is: we get winds up to 45 mph. That's NOT good. But, if we take precautions, we should be able to bypass using generators to fill-in the gap when the solar panels are not working at their peak.
Recently I found some really "cheap" wind generators,($80-$160) and as ususal, you get what you pay for! NO guarantee's, no warranty!
I'll pay more for the locally made generators made in Flagstaff, Arizona, and know I'll have support and warranty available.
WE now plan on buying 4 and wiring then into our system via parallel.

 

Good to know. Governments are always getting rid of "outdated" stuff that would be new to the rest of us.

 

The challenge with a lot of these alternatives is not a matter of money. They won't fly regardless of the price of oil. It's expressed as ER/EI - energy returned over energy invested. If if takes more energy to produce than it yields, it's an act of pure madness to pursue.

Hydrogen is the perfect example. It requires more energy (BTU's) to produce hydrogen than you get when you burn it. That pretty much eliminates hydrogen as a means to power the economy. Hydrogen is also the least dense of all the elements, and this brings on more problems:

Suppose you fuel your car with hydrogen, and you have a 30 mile trip ahead of you. Using gasoline, your car has a 300 mile range, but hydrogen provides only 1/20 the energy so your range is now 15 miles between fuel stops. Sure, you can put in a larger tank, but there goes your trunk and your back seat. That only solves half the problem, because the 1/20 still applies to the rest of distribution. Could our roads and gas stations accommodate 20 times more fuel delivery trucks and deliveries?

Then there's the matter of storage. Hydrogen actually leaks out of solid steel tanks. There are tanks that don't leak, but not at a price that can be built into every car and truck. I wouldn't want one parked in my garage regardless.

Which brings me to safety. If you think static electricity is a danger when pumping gasoline, well... Remember the Hindenburg? The kind of safety measures we'd need to run the nations car and truck fleet on hydrogen are beyond me. All I can say is 1) good luck, and 2) not in my back yard!!!

Oil has spoiled us. It's dense with energy, and there's no other liquid fuel that will do the same work for so little up front effort. Peak oil is a real thing, too, and it's here. Sure, there's a lot of oil left in the ground, but we've picked the low-hanging fruit. That's the point of "peak".

The days when a Texan or an Arab could poke a hole in the ground and have thousands of barrels a day of the light sweet stuff erupt from the pipe are behind us. From here on out, ER/EI looms ever larger, and those high flow rates will just be a fond memory.

We will rely more and more on heavy sour crude, as much of the light sweet stuff is already burned up. A barrel of heavy sour yields less in the way of distillates (gas, diesel, kerosene) than light sweet does, too. I'm no expert on how much this adds to the problem, but it's significant.

A large percentage of what's in the ground will stay there forever, due to ER/EI. The oil shale on Colorado's western slope is the poster child for this. It's not even oil yet - it's keragen. To turn it into crude oil, you have to cook it. For months. At high temperatures. Only then can you refine it. Every process they've come up with is water intensive as well, and Colorado is OUT of water. (Should have gone into water rights law, dangit!) I doubt this shale oil will ever be viable on a meaningful scale, due purely to ER/EI.

Getting back on track, PV solar has a poor ER/EI as well. It takes just about as much energy to manufacture the components of a PV solar system as it will produce over it's lifetime. The reason to do solar is independence, and the time to do it is now, while the energy inputs remain affordable!

 

Not true.
Most of the hydrogen schemes proposed involve splitting it off from natural gas which is relatively cheap.
Yes, you and I know it's pointless.
They're hoping to sell it to the public as "green" and off set their costs with increased price. Just another hoax.
I don't think they'll get anywhere. The so-called green revolution is over after climate-gate.
Hopefully we'll be able to put our natural gas reserves to use in the near future.

In general, this whole society is unsustainable. I remember the old Burger King commercials from when I was a kid: "200 million people, no 2 are quite the same..."
So in about 35 years, we've increased our population by 50% !!!!!
Little wonder why there are so many "rumors" about an approaching time of culling. Heck that isn't even needed when you see how things are being run... But I digress...

 

Why we're all here, in two sentences!

 

I can add some more detail on the harbor freight 45 watt solar panel kit but it also applies to look a like solar panels made of the same solar cell materials dargonfly mentioned. They are sold not only by Harbor Freight, but also by Amazon, Northern Tool, Costco and other retailers and are branded Sunforce, SunLink, BatteryMinder, GoBe and with other names.

They come in different packaging and are sold as individual panels or in kits. The "kits" are generally made up of three 15 watt watt solar panels that attach together to make a 45 watt overall system. There are also bigger versions in the 60 watt (four 15 watt) or higher output ratings that use the same type of solar cell panel materials, which I also think could be affected.

My personal misgivings started after I purchased and tested a small Harbor Freight 5 watt panel a number of years ago made of the same solar cell material found in the larger 15 watt Harbor Freight kit and found in the other branded panels. I was putting together small solar battery charger systems and would bring the HF 5 watt panel out to test against some other panels I used and was evaluating. However, each time I tested the HF panel I noticed that it just wasn't performing very well compared to other 5 watt panels in the mix, and the output was decreasing over the times I was using it.

I realize one panels performance doesn't lend itself to being very objective about all such panels but it bothered me and I was getting a number of questions from people asking about the HF and other similar solar panels, asking for recommendations on purchasing and using them and I was struggling to give meaningful input with what little I knew.

In my hunt to find any data that would support my own experience and real suspicions, I came across this review:
Amazon.com: M. Anderson's review of Sunforce 50044 60-Watt Solar Charging Kit

That led me to the report the review mentions:
http://www.humboldt.edu/~aej1/aSiKen...t_July2_05.pdf
and
http://www.humboldt.edu/~aej1/Jacobs...Kenya_EP07.pdf

To sum up the report, it identifies problem solar panels that all have solar cell chemistry made by a manufacturer in Shenzhen China named the Topray Solar Company.

The panels in question are made of an amorphous A-SI type solar cell material also known as thin-film. However, not all thin-film solar panels have the same problem but those from the same manufacture maybe suspect and include a number of low cost solar panel brands.

In the report it shows some pictures of the panels with problems. They surprisingly look identical to the Harbor Freight panels. I could conclude that the panel design doesn't look to have changed much in the 5 years since the report was released and any new similar panels could be subject to the same failure rate as the study reported.

The report says that two sets of panels tested were listed under different brand names but both brands were manufactured by the same company (Topray). For one of the brands, 3 of 4 panels failed completely during the first few months of testing. For the other brand, 1 of 4 failed. In addition, the test showed that all panels from both brand showed a large decrease in their power output of over 50% during the testing period. Meaning that after only a few months in the sun the panels were only supplying 6 watts of power from panels that were initially rated at and initally outputted 14 watts.

This same degradation of output appears similar to what I was seeing on my little 5 watt HF solar panel so I've come to the conclusion, maybe unscientifically that there could be bigger problems with the HF kits and similar panel kits in general, and caution should be taken in considering these type of solar panels for long term preparedness needs.

The solar cell material in question is like that in the attached picture below. The panel or material is dark in a solid deep gray/black/blue color with pinstripe lines that run in parallel every 1/4 inch or so from one side of the panel to the other. This type of solar panel cell materials make up a lot of the more inexpensive solar panels available. Again, you'll find the same solar cell material in Harbor Freight/Chicago Electric panels, GoBe folding panels, 15 watt Sunforce, Brunton, NorthernTool and BatteryMinder panels and other similar looking brands.

Note, I can't be sure that every panel made of the same looking material is going to fail but it is suspect in my mind. Other panels from the same brands that use crystalline solar cell materials would not be suspect. (Crystalline solar cells look more like a checker board in a solar panel arrangement not pinstripe.)

 

I got a 14 or 18 volt drill/driver from them on a promotion along with a large order. Think it only cost me 15 or 20 dollars. included 2 batteries and charger. IT WAS NOT WORTH $10. The inexpensive Black and Decker 18 volt at about $39 is well worth that. As a drill its a little slow. As a driver it lasts longer than my Dewalt 18 volt. JMHO of course

 

I was told by several people I have met, that also purchased the amorphous type panels...They sated that IF I used clear GE 50 year siliocne and ran a bed along the aluminum framing then pushed the silicone into the "crack" where the frame mets the glass, I'd get better and longer service from my el-cheapo panels, as weather ( rain and snow) take their toll quickly on these things!
A word about those 6 volt golf cart batteries: here at the batteries plus they cost over $220 each....I just found a local battery company that rebuilds them and they sell for as little as $25 each depending the Ah you need!

 

That is a great idea and could prevent one of the problems mentioned in the Humbolt.edu study and shown in the water damaged panel picture in my prior post. If however, the el-cheap amorphous cells are subject to a 50% power degradation for just being exposed to the sun for a few months, no amount of weatherproofing would help.

What community is the company located in? Do they sell the rebuilt batteries "dry" so you can add acid later? One problem with lead acid batteries, is that they have a limited 5-7 year shelf life even if they are kept charged and not used. The clock starts ticking once the battery acid washes over the lead plates which is generally when they are manufactured. Even some batteries that are shipped "dry" have had the plates washed with acid so they must be used within a year or so of being made.

 

So far I have had little if any loss on my first panel set, but they have only been exposed for a couple of months....I took them inside before the rain and snow hit the area.
Supposedly they will lose only 20% of their rated power within 4-6 months, but then they stabilize...( not sure about that!)
The 6 volt golf cart batteries are located in Prescott, Az....not far from a golf course. Not sure if they are dry or kept wet....I'll be up there the first week of April and if they have even a 6 month or better waranty, for that price I'll be buying 10 of them!

 

I have used this set up and I liked it soo much, I have a brand new one in the box, for my summer cabin project. The only real problem was they are GLASS and kind of heavy, but well worth the money! I used to tarp mine off in bad weather, and kept them clean! Dust will kill your panel faster than water leakage, this is what causes the leaks.
I did do a "cost analysis".... for the extra money spent on high grade panels, I do not think that in the over-all, there is a savings either way... Good panels last longer/cost more... so you end up about the same...
Small Wind Turbines go for around 550-700, last longer, and put out up to 400 watts... Where I live, the Pacific NW? We spend our money on what works in the rain and wind! Peace!

 

Any opinions on these?

Amazon.com: Sunforce 39810 80-Watt High-Efficiency Polycrystalline Solar Panel with Sharp Module: Automotive

 

That's a better quality module. Price per watt seems a little high, though. ( If these things weren't such a pain to ship I'd set up a group buy from one of my suppliers.) e-Bay, perhaps? Has anyone looked there lately?

 

I just read this thread tonight & have some suggestions.
Everytime you change power form, like dc to ac, you lose some. Its better to use the dc power directly. 12vdc LED lights are best. An RV/marine refer will save power verses 120vac unit on an invertor.
What I am looking for is an old waterpowered saw mill. Hookup a generator to the waterwheel or use it to run a lathe.

 

FYI, Amazon has 50 watt monocrystalline panels for $190 shipped. This is the same price that HF has their 25 watt panels for.

Amazon.com : HQRP 50W Mono-crystalline Solar Panel 50 Watt 12 Volt in Anodized Aluminum Frame 10 Years Limited Power Warranty : Patio, Lawn & Garden

 

Saw that. Worth considering but it's a brand I've never heard of. Probably a rebranded China import - which is fine, but when you go that route, you have a lot of other options - check ebay.

 

I have never heard of the brand either, did some internet research and did not find out much except for all the reviews on the product were good. Unfortunately, just like almost everything else, must be made in China. I went ahead and bought one last night and I'm glad I did, the price today is $20 more then yesterday! Now $210 shipped. Should have bought 2.