I was waiting for someone to recognize that small arms are NOT custom-fitted to soldiers in the military; and, ghrit, you get the prize for being the first person to mention it. A recruit will get a pair of properly fitting boots; but there are no pistols with custom backstraps in any of the military services; nor do I think there ever will be. If the Army or Marines switch from Beretta M9 pistols to SIG P320’s, (or if the Marines move away from M9’s to Kimber MARSOC/ICQB 1911 pistols) then everybody’s going to have to get used to handling and shooting whatever new pistol is handed to them real fast! Pistolcraft is pistolcraft. Jeff Cooper was consistently against adding custom features to combat pistols; and, for many years now, I have shared Cooper’s opinion that a competent pistolero has to be able to use them all with equal ease and skill; AND, he has to be able to do it on the spur of the moment, as well. (No well worn boots here!) A famous pistol trainer once said to me that, when he was new to training, he thought that, ultimately, he could teach any student to use a handgun well; but, in time, he’d been forced to admit that some students were just too, ‘bulletproof ’ to either change their minds and/or learn something new. Just because the advice is sound, or something actually is a better way to do things does NOT mean that the methodology is going to be popularly accepted. At the time this trainer made that remark to me I thought he was only talking about certain stubborn students; but, today, I realize that, unless some sort of dire need or necessity comes along and forces people to change, most people are going to continue along with whatever popular media advertising promotes and ‘the rest of the herd ’ agrees to do. (Everybody — EVERYBODY — rationalizes; but it’s only the very fewest of people who actually think!) Ergo, for more than a decade the FBI and all major police agencies refused to change from using a one-handed pistol grip and ‘Applegate stance ’ to the demonstrably superior two-handed ‘Fairbairn stance ’; and, nowadays, I think I understand ‘Why’. Speaking from my own personal experience, it’s next to impossible to use a social medium like the internet, and/or (most) internet gun forums, to try to convince people that they shouldn’t do things like carry a striker-fired — or, for the matter, any pistol without a firing pin block — in C-1. The C-1/C-3 controversy is just something that ‘an unfortunate few ’ are going to have to learn the hard way. Neither should people carry a ‘mouse gun ’ in the expectation that if (or when) things suddenly ‘go south ’ they’re going to be able to successfully defend themselves with a secondary-size, rather than a primary-size pistol. Believe me, if it should ever happen to you, you’re already going to feel naked enough! (Life is hard; but when you’ve got to go up against a better armed, desperate and determined opponent with nothing more than a ‘mousy’ little secondary pistol then — and, again, you can trust me on this — all of a sudden life is going to become a whole lot more difficult!) It might sound good on somebody’s internet gun forum to say things like: ‘You can’t expect most people, and especially not a woman, to put any real effort into learning how to use a handgun well’ or ‘Most women aren’t going to train as hard as most men do' ; but …… what do remarks like this really translate into? Are the bad guys going to start giving their female victims some sort of discount or break? I don’t think so! Neither is it true that there is one entirely different (and less brutal) self-defense standard for women, and another entirely different (and more brutal) self-defense standard for men. No! Brutality is brutality. Self-defense is self-defense; and, regardless of whether or not a certain pistol is a ‘perfect fit ’, primary handguns are always capable of performing lifesaving tasks better than secondary pistols do. Speaking realistically, now: NO PISTOL IS EVER GOING TO BE A PERFECT FIT. Pistols aren’t shoes; and there will always be individual features like: ambi-safeties; wide triggers, smooth triggers; exposed hammers, covered hammers; flat, humped, large, and small backstraps. A COMPETENT PISTOLERO HAS TO BE ABLE TO QUICKLY ADAPT AND WORK EFFECTIVELY WITH THEM ALL. Can either I, or anybody else successfully teach people to appreciate the validity of the previously stated self-defense axioms and opinions on an internet gun forum? Maybe in a few rare instances it might be possible; but, generally speaking, probably not. So, in line with the advice that several of my fellow instructors who’ve been following this exchange have made, I think it would be foolish for me to continue trying. There are, at least, two ways to learn everything: directly, or indirectly. Most people need to learn things more directly than otherwise; and, perhaps, this is one of the reasons ‘Why’ the Good Lord has put each of us, here, on this incredibly tumultuous earth! Far be it from me to interfere! I’m now an old man; and I got to be an old man by surviving all of my former contests. Be it by (1) the grace of God, (2) personal skill, or (3) mere circumstance, everybody else should be entitled to do exactly the same thing, too. So, to quote ‘Curly Bill Brocius ’, …… ‘Well, Bye! ’ I’m letting this one go.
All good points, though we are not forced to purchase and use ill fitting pistols for ourselves and our families. I do get that "found" or "captured" weapons may not fit ideally and we would need to adapt to them. To me, during normal conditions a pistol is for concealed carry so I chose one that conceals well that I shoot very quickly and accurately with lethal force, and can replace for about $350 if needed. IMO, a pistol has a very limited short range use during SHFT and for me it's to buy time to get my rifle if I'm not carrying it. Then again, I'm a rifleman and not a pistolero. Now that we are all done with pissing contests can we please get this thread back on track? This is supposed to be a resource for women and men who may be advising them.
To the women, is talking about guns something women do with each other in a positive way, out side the forum ?
Look, here is the simple truth...I don't know why it is so hard to accept: A handgun that fits well in your hand is better than one that does not. No reflection on the pistolero, just is what it is.
There's a fine art in recognizing that a thread deviation has gone on long enough. Good move, LG. I, too, have said my say on this subject.
yes we do and we discuss the differences we experience. This thread has gone sideways.... women dont talk to men about what they need. This thread demonstrates why.
Please for a moment, try to imagine me with a nice Joisy Guido accent, with a leer in my eye and a rolled up sock in my speedo as I reply; "That's right, toots...we know what you need, better than you do. You say gun...but we both know what kind of gun you need...wink-wink (this is where I grab that sock in my speedo). Yepper, us guys are all liberals at heart...only in a more sicko-sexual-lewd kinda way. So, how YOU doin?"
@AxesAreBetter im going to try to answer your 'why' because you seem like you really want an answer. Women have to try things the are unfamiliar with, test it, feel into it and try it again and look for and at what works. Men make things work for them. Ideally women will make things work in tough times but when introducing women to new thing in an area like guns or radios etc that are traditionally male it can be intimidating for most women. They need to be able to discuss things like 'body parts' without having the person they are talking to go to leering and making sexual jokes. We really do have to discuss how to manage our different body parts. Many women are shy about talking about this kind of thing and when they talk to other women who can make jokes and laugh with them it eases the tension. The range boss where I go has been really great about making sure we aren't bothered when we have a new group of women. He isolates us which is nice. I'm not saying men are bad or wrong for wanting to help. Most men are perfect gentlemen and there are those... leering types that just wont take no for an answer. Most male instructors (not all) want to jump women right into being able to handle any kind of weapon and most beginners need to find one thing that works, get comfortable with it and then branch out into other weapons. Sometimes men do this out of trying to do the peacock thing and impress women but most do it unwittingly because they treat women like men. We are not the same. Again to be very clear, the guy approach is not the 'wrong approach' its just not as effective with most women. I am regretful that @Lone Gunman took my comments badly as I was trying to point out differences and get teh thread back on track. If you notice in this thread not one woman talked about how they carry. A few discussed what they carry but not what. The majority of the comments are made by men about what their wives carry. Not one of the wvfes talking about what they carry and why or how they carry. The major difference between men and women that neither sex really understands about the other is, men need to have their opinions respected (whether we agree with them or not) and women need to have their feelings respected (whether you think they are silly or not). A woman's feeling (not just emotions) are as important to her as a man's opinion is too him. Most women flop out something they call opinions based on feelings and they think men do the same thing. Men generally have opinions based on data and logical conclusions that they have thought about. Women don't generally form opinions like that. But we do do a leap of logic that defies all reason and comes to some amazingly accurate conclusions and we call those 'feelings'. Just a small difference in male/female thinking. So generally women choose guns they like based on a 'feeling' or instinctual response not based on something logical and to come to a decision about what to carry women need to talk about the gun, how they are going to carry it, draw it, clean it and see lots of different options and try them. And they need to be very specific about how they are going to manage the extra curves they have. one example is if you have hips and muscly thighs you aren't as likely to side carry on your hip as it makes the hips stick out too far, and the guns move too much when you move, typically if you have muscly thighs your leg carry (if its open carry) will probably be more toward the front of your thigh. IF you dont have muscly thighs then your side carry on th thigh will work... maybe depending on your hips. The other thing you have to work out on a thigh holster is how wide are your straps so that they are a comfortable fit and don't wear blisters in the wrong places. And the stupidest thigh holster of all time is that lace concealed carry for inner thigh .... that is the most ridiculous holster. Only about 10% of women have long enough and thin enough thighs to wear that thing and even then the lycra gives out way too fast. You cant move in the damn thing without it falling down. Imagine running and having it slip down your let and trip you. Dumbest thigh holster of all time. We laugh about that one alot!
Thanks, Ganado, and I think I finally understand why so many firearm and outdoor forums have female only sections. Outstanding post!
My (somewhat professional) experience has been along those lines. When possible, I usually let get the more opinionated members (not pointing fingers, I agree with both arguments made on here), and make them watch as a lady has difficulty/fails to perform a "simple drill" because of how differently proportioned they are to their male counterparts. You would be STUNNED how many ladies shoot revolvers because the cannot rack a slide under pressure or the grips are so large (comfortable to me) that the cannot reach the trigger or hammer without repositioning both hands off the grip. Also a good points about the holsters, and god help a man trying to argue that "feeling safe" with a gun in the car while you are at the store is not the same as HAVING THE GUN ON YOU if something happens in the store. Haha. That said, I also am a firm believer that you need to pack the best gun for the job...better fit makes for a less practice by being more "natural" to shoot, but sometimes the only gun that'll do is a POS to shoot with.
I agree. @Ganado that was an excellent post. And @3M-TA3 is correct, forums have female only sections. I often wondered why the monkey does not. As for this thread, seemed like it veered into was one of those male threads that really wasn't for helping the female shooter IMO.
One reason is the need for vetting, to assure that someone wanting into a private forum is indeed what they say they are, case extant, female. FWIW to my mind, it is just another way to segregate, to divide what might otherwise be a cohesive group. YMMV uv cuss. And a second to last thought - Maybe, just maybe, if the ladies were less shy about their, shall we say, gender specific issues, then maybe the boys would have a better understanding of the questions. And last, there are always conversations that can be used, invite interested ladies via a post in a thread in an appropriate forum to the effect that such and such will be discussed, pm the poster to be invited.
Back in the Day, when we had the MonkeyChat up and running, the Ladies that were here used a Private ChatRoom when they wanted a Gals Only space.... Some of those discussions were handy for them, and AlaskaChick would participate on occasion.... I miss our Old MonkeyChat....
What I think is important in the way I train women to shoot is starting with air guns, due to their size weight and action but a soft introduction to the sport.,rather then starting out with a large frame .44 mag. I don't see any one else doing or suggesting this . I realize that a lot of men do not consider air guns as real guns, but toys ,so they ignore the media (air) but fact of the matter is, Air guns were used to train troops during the 1st WW because so few knew any thing about guns . Air guns go back to Napolinan war times . the first pre-charged Pneumatic. Lewis and Clark took an air gun across country, to convince indians they had better fire power than the musket, no smoke, nor report to locate the shooter, and faster fallow up shots. An all women group is not going to bring up these facts, so they would be isolating them selves from all the information available.
Before the ladies mash you into the carpet, it is NOT a certainty that none of them will know anything. In fact ---
I don't think ANY of the women who responded so far were uneducated about firearms. I know I learned a few things from them. I was hoping this would be a thread where women could compare notes and we guys could learn from the female perspective, perhaps to help our partners a bit. I personally needed insight since one of my roles as a sheep dog is to provide resources (like firearms) for people of both sexes and a wide age range who may not fully understand what may be coming. Carbine choice, as an example. I've been standardizing on the AR-15 platform because it effective and seems well suited to either sex. I'm curious on the take from women who have used these - are they good to go for women or should I be looking at a 9mm carbine? I know many women shoot some rifles that have a lot of recoil, but I'm thinking about women in general. Also, what about optics? What types do you ladies like and why? Reason here is that as a generality most men are better a spatial relationships and that may come into play with sights. Probably overthinking things, but even knowing that is helpful.
I don't think we need a ladies only chat or forum for guns, we arent shy,shy was a nice way of saying we avoid conflict and dont like to tread on male egos for the following reasons we dont discuss body parts with men unless we know them well. 1) we just dont see the point in arguing with someone who is convinced they have all the answers. Its like rolling around din the mud with pigs. the pigs like it and we just feel dirty. 2) @ghrit did you miss the part about men making sexual innuendos when women talk body parts? I did a more tasteful version of what we talk about when i discussed thighs above. AND Women have breasts and asses that are different than men and we dont talk about those body parts in front of men because some guy always comes along and inserts his libido. Its annoying a f$#K! when they do that and it stops the communication cold. @chimo loved your comments with the leer ..... you tried to tell them in a nice way, i had to slap some straight talk on =)
