At what distance do you stop being a threat?

I just mentioned the thought of getting a scope to a friend and I was advised to use my iron sights. Know them, learn and perfect then get a scope. (Many) Scopes have batteries and are electronic they can fail like all electronics.

But I am not sure that is what the OP is looking for. @M118LR where did you run off to?

 

The facts and opinions expressed in this thread are proof of the reason the forum should exist. While it may wander around a bit, I have received a lot of good advise and have been introduced to several new tools that I am going to have to look into. The fact that different members have differing views and are willing to explain why they espouse a particular scope, tool, etc, only makes it more interesting.

 

That is a great piece of advice your friend gave you Motomom34, Learn the Irons firstly, and you will always have those skills. Plus, what you learn with the irons translates over to using optics making your learning curve a bit easier because you all ready understand the fundamentals of ballistics.
Most optics that use batteries will still function when the battery fails, they just won't have the features driven by a battery, with the noted exception of DOT type or Holographic sights, and that is where a set of back up Irons really save your bacon!

 

The advice to learn irons is good, and I'll back anyone that says the same. So far as scopes go, they have a real place in the tool box, but what happens on (as you note) a failure, electronic or otherwise? Looks like good ol' m118lr lost interest with this thread after the deviations began. It IS difficult herding cats. (His focus is on scopes, and is trying to teach us how to use them, regardless of the available sight ranges we have in our AOs. I'll pay attention, but spending on a scope and rifle that will reach out over a few hundred (yards or meters, your choice) is not going to happen chez moi.)

 

Here is a tool I cannot live with out, A M-2 Ballistic compass! This will take all the guessing out, and combined with your rifles ballistic chart, you don't need any other equipment. forget the Ballistic calculator apps, and wind meters and such, learn these skills "Old School" and you cannot be stopped!!!

 

@Ura-Ki Not to get off topic more than we already have, but map reading is a real skill that seldom taught and seldom learn to the degree it should be especially now with the GPS. Personally, I never go into the wilds without a plain old compass...not sure where my M2 has walk off to as it seems it grew legs and walked away - again!

Anyway, here's hoping @M118LR rejoins us soon as seems he left us on the Ho Chi Minh trail and I need to get home by supper!

 

Sorry Bandit99, but you are missing a very important piece of information here, that M-2 Compass has every thing to do with shooting, set it atop your scope turret and read what it is telling you, then turn it on it's side and read again and take note of the readings and with your rifles chart to adjust your shooting solution! Remember what that compass was originally intended for? Long Range Ballistics!

 

"Very High Power", the .50 cal shooters mag did an article on scopes and they had a serious discussion about whether to print it or not. Too many "high end" (meaning ruinously expensive) scopes were failing on the first shot and some cheap scopes actually lasted several shots! How do you tell your advertisers that their $2500-$4000 scopes failed after ONE round while a cheap Weaver (and several other cheapo brand scopes) actually lasted much longer? In fact a Weaver was one of the shooters' "go to scope" to make sure of accuracy when test firing a .50 Caliber rifle! Not only did it not break, it was accurate and if there was a problem, it was the rifle, not the scope. The Nighthawk scope actually broke in two after one round, and it was not a cheap model either!

 

I am good to 400 yards. dead on at 200 an under.

 

This compass was originally intended for field arty, you would set it atop or along side the guns sighting system to correctly and accurately align the tube with your given map call outs, this allowed you to also fire in direct fire mode such as fighting tanks or troupes. A rifleman uses this the same way, as it allows you to obtain very accurate information, Angle will give you the correct hold for up hill or down hill shots, and it also gives the exact angle holds for correction for the earths curvature and spin! The advantages are that it's one simple tool that can be used for many different purposes, and it doesn't require a battery, doesn't require any input from outside sources, and is repeatable no matter what, and in what weather!

 

You are absolutely correct...I just never thought of it before now, before you said so. I love this forum. EDIT: Now I have got mine out and am playing around with it.

 

I'm thinking we might dove tail another thread! Setting up a rifle and learning to use the tools we have to learn accurate shooting at any range!

 

That Burris Eliminator is a pretty sweet piece of kit, I have looked at them a time or three, and the only thing holding me back is the weight and the funky set up for the range hold/lock button, I would prefer that be integrated into the optic body, or hard wired to a few places on the rifle! I do like that it can be set for many different loads and chamberings, and also wish you could switch settings faster and with greater ease! Still, a nice and very handy tool to have, and they seem to hold up to recoil very well!

 

See also
One Rifle | Page 6 | Survival Monkey Forums
There's some slop over with longer range shooting in that thread that seems to want a bit more detail.

 

For those living around east Washington and North Idaho.. I have not trained at this site, however, I am considering as to if this would be an economically feasible option for an old man.

Bull Hill Training Ranch

 

Personal preference is that for out to about 100 + yards I have found nothing better the Apple Seed program, beyond that range I have found nothing to equal it, but have had some suggestions made in this thread that I will follow up. Apple Seed program has a downloadable pdf that is well worth reading and having a hard copy available to train others if the SHTF. Emphasis is on teaching the basics with the least amount of time, space, and ammo.

 

Sorry for the delay, life with the Grand children does happen.

Noticed allot of scope discussion, so perhaps it's time to discuss what makes for inaccuracy.

Now the deep rural folks are going to be relying on how accurately the can eyeball the Target's size. The Mil-Dot Master even has averages for most big game animals to assist in ranging. But Urban Folks have all forms of predetermined devices for more accurate ranging. Link: Signs Set
Every doorway,window, street sign, license plate, etc.... allows you to more accurately range known sized objects.
ie, What happens to our estimate if the Target in the cross-hairs is actually 6 foot 6 or 5 foot 6 instead of the 6 foot assumed?

MOA: 1 MOA spreads about 1" per 100 yards. (actually 1.047"). So a rifle ammunition combo that is MOA at 800 yards has a 8.376 grouping. So you can theoretically take the 10 shot 100 yard grouping of your rifle ammo combo and determine at what distance you will no longer be able to maintain a 10 inch group. (in actual practice you will not be able to attain theoretical max distance.) So even if you are the most perfect shooter in the world, perform all the correct calculations, the odds of obtaining a center of mass hit with a +10 inch group is exceptionally low. Thus you can determine at what distance you no longer are a threat. The Old Military Standard for General Issue Rifles and Ammunition combo's was 3.5 MOA. (thus Big Green downsizing to the 300 course of fire)
Yes there are precision rifles specifically created to hold sub 0.5 or less MOA with a particular loading for a certain amount of throat erosion/barrel wear, but the price of scopes with repeatable micrometer tracking and Ultra Clear Glass, will not exceed the cost of such precision rifles.

Time to field a few viewpoints.