A people at War: Reservists and Irregulars in Ukraine.

@Ura-Ki ""we" might be rolling up to 100 older (former USMC) M-1 Abrams tanks into the Ukraine for them to play with against the Russians, if true, this would be a YUGE game changer! I also hear a bunch of war planes are going to be sent, that the MIG deal might still go through despite any threats from Putin, again, YUGE game changer!"

I haven't heard this nor did I hear that Putin said anything about the MIG deal... I thought it was more how President Brandon was dragging his feet, seeing how the winds were blowing and his normal weak knee, drooling approach to any problem.

@enloopious
We will have to be totally in opposite corners on this topic. Yes, there is a small Nazi-like contingent in Ukraine and in America as well! However, your comment that "I'm fairly confident that 97% of Ukrainian people voted to join Russia." is totally 100% not true. I would like to see any facts back this up. Also, we're in contact with friends in Mariupol and Kyiv and we're hearing exactly the opposite.

Using simply logic, should 97% of the people want to be part of Russia then we would see exactly what happened in Afghanistan, namely soldiers throwing down their weapons and running away or raising their hands in surrender not fighting tooth and nail. Sorry, but this doesn't pass the logic test.

What is factual is "Ukraine officially declared itself an independent country on 24 August 1991, when the communist Supreme Soviet (parliament) of Ukraine proclaimed that Ukraine would no longer follow the laws of USSR and only the laws of the Ukrainian SSR, de facto declaring Ukraine's independence from the Soviet Union. On 1 December, voters approved a referendum formalizing independence from the Soviet Union. Over 90% of Ukrainian citizens voted for independence, with majorities in every region, including 56% in Crimea. The Soviet Union formally ceased to exist on 26 December, when the presidents of Ukraine, Belarus and Russia (the founding members of the USSR) met in Białowieża Forest to formally dissolve the Union in accordance with the Soviet Constitution. With this, Ukraine's independence was formalized de jure and recognized by the international community."

"...the Biden crime family was committing treason and accepting bribes from China. THAT is a real news story."
In this, we are complete agreement. However, I believe no matter what Biden has done in the past or is currently doing, he will never have to answer for it, that goes for his son too. He's a crook and a traitor and personally I don't believe he won the election but he will never have to answer for any of it. Why? Because they control everything or enough of it to ensure that nothing can happen. We're never going to see justice done to him, his son or to any of the elites because if one goes they know they all can go and they will not let that happen.

 

Congress voting on the "Lend-Lease"program of the past, if you look at whats in that package, the older first gen A-1 is listed, as are the numbers to be sent in stage one! Other parts call for aircraft, more advanced( current) weapons, systems, tech. and training packages!

 

Saying that there is a small Nazi element just like there is in the US would be true if the small Nazi element in the US consisted of the Navy Seals. It is not a small group of people, it is a military unit, the AZOV BATTALION, and there are also politicians. I think you would be very hard pressed to find the same number of Nazis in the US as compared to Ukraine and our politicians don't say HEIL HITLER in the Senate. Their population is 43+ million and ours is appx 325million. Percentage wise it is a huge number.
Azov Battalion - Wikipedia

My bad, 96%. That is when the war started, 2014. The US involvement only started when the Bidens got found out. Did you watch the documentary I posted? The names are all the same.
Ukraine Region Votes to Join Russia
2014 Donbas status referendums - Wikipedia
Crimeans vote overwhelmingly to secede from Ukraine, join Russia
A historical timeline of post-independence Ukraine

Now I can understand why Putin doesn't want Ukraine to join NATO. Its pretty obvious but I don't understand why the US wants Ukraine to fight Russia. How does that benefit us?

I guess you do have to admire the beauty in the cunning for a senile corrupt politician to get the support of the American people, and the world, to support a war in a place they can't find on a map so that his corruption and treason don't get found out and he doesn't get hanged.

 

@enloopious I admit I did not watch the video as much too busy these past couple of weeks to do much of anything besides work. So, if this is where you are getting the 96% then okay but I am not buying it. It doesn't make sense since the Ukrainians have been totally committed to not yielding an inch. It just doesn't make any sense!

As far as the Azov Battalion which appears to be compose of "1000-1500 soldiers from 22 countries of which 20% are Nazis" - well - you must admit that is not a significant number of their military or their population... Nevertheless, I do not know what to say about this (and don't have time to dig into it) but I refuse to base my opinion for the entire country upon a small group of people whose numbers have no reflection on their military or population - I mean - we're talking about 300 people or so. Hell, we have hate groups also in our own country but that comes with Democracy as you are free to hate whom you wish. And, while we don't have politicians yelling "Heil Hitler!" we sure got a lot of communists screaming "LEFT! LEFT! LEFT!" which makes up for slightly more than half of our own Congress.

Anyway, we are going to have to disagree on this. I agree this battalion is disturbing, very disturbing, but the Ukraine is neck deep in a full-blown war and also it is a new democracy which hasn't even got its feet on the ground yet. Anyway, I am willing to give them a chance. In a true democracy all types of freedoms are protected so...

One last thing, it would seem to me that if Biden wanted to cover his tracks in the Ukraine (which obviously he is dirty) he would use all his bag of tricks to NOT support the Ukraine allowing Russia to run over them. Actually, this is exactly what I thought he would do when it first kicked off. Possibly, he is dragging his feet as much as possible (like denying the MIGs) but is being forced to send them support.

 

Yeah, I saw they passed the Lend-Lease (now if that incompetent crook of a President will use it) but didn't see the package. I was very curious if we were sending ground Anti-Air systems? I can't see how aircraft will help in any great regard as they will be totally outnumbered and pilots need years of training but armor, especially on the defensive, and artillery could be utilized fairly quickly. Did you say Israel is sending or has sent the Iron Dome? I remember about a month ago they decided not to send it, I don't know why, maybe because they were afraid it would end up in Russian hands. So, they changed their mind?

 

Good stuff, Bandit. Does the banning of opposing political parties in the Ukraine seem problematic?
Zelenskyy suspends Ukrainian opposition parties with 'ties' to Russia, warns of 'harsh response' if they don't comply with ban

 

China apparently switched sides, Sent 6 Large Mil. air cargo planes with weapons to Serbia, presumably to transfer into Ukraine! This ( if true) sends a very powerful message to Russia!
On the other hand, China is also stepping up it's nuke stock pile in case of actions with the U.S!

 

CraftyMofo, I would say yes, yes it is a problem...but with caveats. I got to thinking hard about this when Zleneskyy banned them and Tucker (on Fox) went ballistic. For what it's worth here are my thoughts... Throughout history, all leaders (presidents, kings, prime ministers, etc.) have done what we would call exceeded their authority in a democracy during a time of ultimate crisis; however, most (not always) of these times they were given wartime powers so, legally, they had not. I mean, there are so many examples even in our own country, FDR placing American-Japanese in concentration camps, Lincoln's excessive bans protecting the Union are also well known. My point is, these leaders are given powers to do whatever is necessary to protect the nation/country during the crisis. Some exceeded these powers, most didn't but only after the crisis is resolved can that be determined mainly because we have no way of knowing all the facts that led the leader to do this.

So, I found Tucker Carlson, in this case, to be totally and completely out of line. Why? Because the Ukraine is fighting for its very life, their country is being destroyed and they are fighting a fight they cannot win and yet he wants to nitpick about banning an entity that could cause serious problems or at the very least, dissent during a time when the decision of if the country lives or dies hangs by a thread. This is serious all-out war that we haven't seen since WW2 where ALL a country's resources and citizens are brought to bear to ensure survival. So, yes, I understand his banning them in this case and if he had the authority to do so will be answered if they remain a democracy and survive.

Given this, what I cannot answer is why he has not banned this Nazi group? I just don't know why and find this puzzling. Maybe they are not a true political party, simply a personal belief, or maybe their existence is totally blown out of proportion or maybe unknown to us they have some hold on the President or perhaps things are so grave it's felt they are needed and can be held in check until the crisis is over... I just don't know and even if I did have time to research it (and I don't) I doubt I could find any real facts right now because obviously the opposition is using this to the max in the battle of propaganda.

Anyway, for what it's worth that's my opinion... Ukraine is in a battle for its survival and for the America to sit back, fat and happy, and criticize their democracy (btw their democracy might not be the same as ours) and how they maintain it is naive and ridiculous. Should they survive, which I doubt, they then have the luxury of undoing their mistakes and righting their wrongs and then we can look down our nose and judge them and their actions but right now its totally wrong.

 

This makes absolutely no sense...perhaps "the enemy of my enemy" sort of thing? However, I think sec_monkey might be right and this is simply a Serbian buy that went through at this time...nothing else makes sense. China must support Russian, at least verbally, in order to justify their actions on Taiwan. Why China hasn't push for a resolution on Taiwan now is another mystery which maybe can be answered if they do indeed own Biden and they know they can wait for a better time.

 

It was in that video but also the link I posted was to the WSJ and here is another to Wikipedia and NBC. I was just trying to point out that the election you were talking about was 1991 and in 2014 there was another. That is when the war started. Our convenient joining of the war only started when it was useful to take the public's attention away from the dismantling of America.

2014 Donbas status referendums - Wikipedia
Disputed Crimea Referendum Sees 96.8 Percent Vote to Join Russia

You ever get the feeling that Biden or his handlers actually want a nuclear war? I would say there's a good chance that is exactly what they want.

 

@enloopious "I was just trying to point out that the election you were talking about was 1991 and in 2014 there was another."
Yes, there was a 2014 election/poll if (IIRC) in the Crimean; however, it wasn't recognized by the Ukraine government (nor the world for that matter) as it was severely tainted by Russia influence and now we know that Russia indeed has had troops (unmarked, no insignias) in the Crimean since 2014 if not early. Putin has even come clean on this point.

Nevertheless, the Crimean is part of the Ukraine since 1954 (again IIRC) and for them to say that "We no longer want to be part of the Ukraine. Cheerio! We are now Russians." is about the same as our own Civil War except in this case the scenario is being control and instigated by a super-power - Russia, which btw the 1994 Budapest agreement (signed by Putin) is EXACTLY what they agreed to NOT do, basically not recognize Ukraine's borders and invade.

"...when it was useful to take the public's attention away from the dismantling of America."
While the Biden and his cronies might have thought this, it is far from turning out this way. Governor Abbot is busing illegals to Washington DC's doorstep, the Ukraine war has shown the lunacy of relying on foreign powers for strategic and important resources, and the Public are reminded of his insane policies every trip to the grocery store or gas pump - especially after we had things so good under President Trump THAT is their biggest problem and one they cannot hide from or deny. The people now know our energy and energy for our allies does not have to be determined by rogue or unfriendly nations, that are borders can be made safe, etc.

"You ever get the feeling that Biden or his handlers actually want a nuclear war?"
Yes, however I think it's probably my own paranoia for even Biden can't win in a nuclear conflict. What I do think is he and others can hugely profit from the war in the Ukraine which I am sure is exactly what is happening.

 

The irony and hypocrisy is staggering. It really jumps out at me when our corrupt election was "the most honest secure election in the history of the world" and the Crimean was corrupt. Is Russian influence 96.8% of the people and even if it is, does that mean that the election is NOT valid? Even if it is true that Russia interfered does that mean that the opposite results are required? Why was there no recount/revote. Does that mean that America gets to decide the outcome of other countries elections? There's a lot missing from the conversation.

How many conflicting foreign entanglements have we agreed to? The crooks in Washington fund and support both sides of every conflict and this one is no different. They need your support. How much of US dollars are going to Russia because of these stupid sanctions? Fertilizer, oil, wheat, notice any skyrocketing prices? Biden said its worth US suffering to help Ukraine. Its just so stupid all around and people are actually arguing to support the idiocy. Why? No I really mean it. Why? Ask yourself where you got the idea. How did it get in our heads, and I mean the collective we. They have been at war since 2014 but NOW we need to help them? You can't tell me you don't smell something rotten to high heaven. There are no coincidences.

I don't want them to join Russia and I don't want them to join NATO... but the question still remains: why is it any of our business what they do? I see a lot of people getting suckered into supporting Ukraine. Its a bad mistake and we are already paying for it but just wait, the price will get a lot higher.

 

Mariupol has fallen or will shortly! Most of the Ukrainian military forces are in eastern Ukraine fighting a defensive war of attrition...and loosing badly! They are out of ammo, food, water, medicine, and men! They are surrounded and cut-off from reinforcements and re-supply...hell they can't even evacuate their wounded and civilians! Some armchair military genius in Kiev apparently wanted to recreate the Battle of Stalingrad...only the Ukrainian forces are playing the part of the German 6th Army! When an army loses its ability to move it's usually just a matter of time before it's defeated!

 

I hear you and you are right. Yes, we Americans should not give a damn what happens over there - at least in the short term however in the long-term could prove to be much more dangerous than now. The point that is driving Americans to support Ukraine, in my opinion, is the clear-cut case of aggression by a larger power against a smaller one. Putin's rants and raves are all bullshit and can be picked apart logically if one takes the time. I won't go through them again since I have done so before on this forum before but the major one of fearing attack by NATO is easily proved BS since NATO will not intercede now, when Russia is so obviously in the wrong and, the reason is due to Russia's nuclear weapons and its willingness to use them which more than shows that Putin is full of shit. So, he fears NATO attacking him in the future when he still have nukes but not now because he has nukes? Doesn't pass the logic test... Nuclear weapons stalemated 20th century warfare - period. So, if NATO won't attack now why should they attack in the future? Bullshit. But, back on point...

Your point about corrupted elections is a valid one; however, the difference is we have the opportunity to change the laws to ensure it doesn't happen again. They do not have any opportunity as Russia is "have it my way or...we'll shoot you down." End of story.

Understand, I do see your point, but I just don't agree with it. Yes, I am certain the USA helped cause this crisis in some way, shape or form but all that crap went out the window as soon as the first Russia soldier cross the border. Nevertheless, for Russia to revert to old Stalin style 'iron fist' tactics in the 21st century is totally unacceptable and cannot go unanswered because history has shown where that leads.

We made agreements in Budapest as did Russia who broke that agreement. The Ukraine has now asked us to keep our word. In that regard, the answer is simple. We either do what we agreed to or we turn our backs, both have consequences but the latter is longer and more serious for America. While I like the idea of isolationism it is an impossibility given how the world is interlocked in commence and - well - everything.

So, my opinionfor what it's worth, is give Ukraine all the weapons it needs to kill so many Russians that even if they win it will be a pyrrhic victory so devastating that the 'iron fist' method of diplomacy will be a thing of the past and Putin legacy will be so tarnished that, like Stalin's, they will remember its consequences. Most young Russian do not want this. They want to be part of the international community but have no choice or voice in the matter. Perhaps, if this war is costly enough, this will change for the better not only for Russia but the world.