My gun ctrl argument with some Brits and a Floridian. Sit in

Re: My gun ctrl argument with some Brits and a Floridian. Si

Wow! That sounds like here in Hawaii. No CCW's, no traveler's law, no double edged knives, pretty much no self defense allowed. I have a friend who's truck has been stolen three times in the past two years, and know at least five people who have had their homes broken into MULTIPLE times. As opposed to my hometown in Texas where I literaly never knew anyone who had their home broken into. Damn brits, this is the second time they've tried to take our guns, Blackjack I hope this time ends the same as last time!

 

Re: My gun ctrl argument with some Brits and a Floridian. Si

Ask and you shall receive: http://www.nraila.org/media/misc/fables.html#FABLE XIII:

[SIZE=-1]FABLE XIII: Foreign countries such as England and Japan have much less crime than the U.S. because of their more severe gun laws.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]Actually, we can learn a lot from the British experiment with gun control. Britain's licensing of gun owners and registration of their firearms made it possible for the government to demand mass forfeitures of registered pump and semi-automatic shotguns guns in 1988, following the murderous rampage by a deranged individual in Hungerford. Within a decade, British politicians had criminalized possession of first large caliber handguns, then all handguns. Licensed gun owners were told to turn in their handguns; the final deadline was Feb. 27, 1998.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]The British government declared legal private property to be contraband and then set about confiscating it. Curbing violence was the promise; a wholesale loss of liberty was the price. And what of that promise? According to the International Crime Victims Survey carried out by the Dutch Ministry of Justice, England--together with Australia and Wales, where anti-gunners have also been at work--has the highest burglary rate and highest rates for crime of violence among the top 17 industrialized nations.[/SIZE][SIZE=-1]1[/SIZE][SIZE=-1] As the Guardian put it, the study "shows England and Wales as the top of the world league with Australia as the countries where you are most likely to become a victim of crime."[/SIZE][SIZE=-1]2[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]And then on Oct. 13, 2002, London's Sunday Times reported that: "Britain's murder rate has risen to its highest level since records began 100 years ago, undermining claims by ministers that they have got violent crime under control."[/SIZE][SIZE=-1]3[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]Of course embarrassed British politicians have reacted to the irrefutable failure of their gun control schemes by calling for more of the same. But they have already criminalized possession of most firearms (air guns are the next target) by honest people.[/SIZE][SIZE=-1]4[/SIZE][SIZE=-1] What is left for them? The answer became chillingly clear in July 2002, with the release of a government "white paper" titled "Justice for All."[/SIZE][SIZE=-1]5[/SIZE][SIZE=-1] It might have been more appropriately titled "Less Civil Liberties for All."[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]After first disarming the British people and thereby making them more attractive to criminal predators, the government is now recommending that centuries of English Common Law be eviscerated. Among other things, the government seeks to:[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]allow the use of hearsay evidence in trials[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]retroactively remove the double jeopardy rule for serious cases[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]eliminate the right to trial by jury in many cases[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]"modernize" the exclusionary evidence rule.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]As shocking as these British infringements on liberty are to Americans who cherish our Bill of Rights, they will hardly faze the people of Japan, another nation that American gun prohibitionists hold in such high esteem. Japan does have severe gun control laws and low crime, but as the Independence Institute's David Kopel noted in a work voted 1992 Book of the Year by the American Society of Criminology's Division of International Criminology, Japanese-style gun control requires measures that could not be imposed in the U.S.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]In Japan, citizens have fewer protections of the right to privacy and fewer rights for criminal suspects than in the United States. Japanese police routinely search citizens at will and twice a year pay "home visits" to citizens' residences. Suspect confession rate is 95% and trial conviction rate is more than 99.9%.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]The Tokyo Bar Association has said that the Japanese police routinely engage in torture or illegal treatment. Even in cases where suspects claimed to have been tortured and their bodies bore the physical traces to back their claims, courts have still accepted their confessions. Amnesty International, Kopel noted, calls Japan's police custody system "a flagrant violation of United Nations human rights principles."[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]But, Kopel wrote, "Without abrogating the Bill of Rights, America could not give its police and prosecutors extensive Japanese-style powers to enforce severe gun laws effectively. Unlike the Japanese, Americans are not already secure from crime, and are therefore less likely to surrender their personal means of defense. More importantly, America has no tradition like Japan's of civil disarmament, of submission to authority, or of trust in the government." Thus, "Foreign style gun control is doomed to failure in America. Foreign gun control comes along with searches and seizures, and with many other restrictions on civil liberties too intrusive for America. . . . It postulates an authoritarian philosophy of government and society fundamentally at odds with the individualist and egalitarian American ethos."[/SIZE][SIZE=-1]6[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]Perhaps Don. B. Kates, a noted civil rights lawyer, best put the international comparison myth in perspective, writing, "In any society, truly violent people are only a small minority. We know that law-abiding citizens do not commit violent crimes. We know that criminals will neither obey gun bans nor refrain from turning other deadly instruments to their nefarious purposes. . . . In sum, peaceful societies do not need general gun bans and violent societies do not benefit from them."[/SIZE][SIZE=-1]7[/SIZE]

 

Re: My gun ctrl argument with some Brits and a Floridian. Si

Okay, all you Brits - turn in those deadly teacups!

(I just watched "The Riddick Chronicles" again . . . )

 

Re: My gun ctrl argument with some Brits and a Floridian. Si

Thank You E.L.!

It's now pasted in the other thread

 

Re: My gun ctrl argument with some Brits and a Floridian. Si

Blackjack
Brother keep up the good word.

 

Re: My gun ctrl argument with some Brits and a Floridian. Si

Glad I could be of service. Give em' hell!

 

Re: My gun ctrl argument with some Brits and a Floridian. Si

You could always ask 2 questions, the anwsers to which tend to prove just how well gun controle protects people. What cities in the US have the highest violent crime rates? DC, LA, New York, Chicago. What US cities have the strictest gun controle law? DC, LA, New York, Chicago. Notice the connection?

 

Re: My gun ctrl argument with some Brits and a Floridian. Si

And Brit #2 comes back.


Brit #2
As I mentioned above, roughly 50% of murderers in the US have no previous convictions of any kind, and were, therefore "law-abiding citizens" until they committed their murders.

The distinction between a law-abiding citizen and a violent criminal is not so plain as some would have us believe, particularly when that difference amounts to nothing more than a few millimetres of pressure from a finger.


Blackjack
No..... a hell of a lot more seperate the law abiding from violent criminals. That's one of the main problems with the anti-gun lobby, they imagine that there is this critically thin line between citizen and criminal that is always near the breaking point.

The "antis" would have you believe that all gun owners are just a failed relationship or lost job away from a killing spree, and nothing could be farther from the truth, and they conveniently leave out the thousands of times every year that those same "gun nut, murders in waiting" stop violent crime dead in it's tracks.

I truly do hope that you anti-gun folks are never faced with the brutal reality that defense of your life, and the lives of your family, is the single most important and fundamental freedom (and responsibility) that we have.

 

Re: My gun ctrl argument with some Brits and a Floridian. Si

You're doing a great job fightin' the good fight man!

 

Re: My gun ctrl argument with some Brits and a Floridian. Si

While a bit drawn out you can always ask if they have ever been attacked or in a physical altercation, even say as a kid on the playground. More than likely if its opened up this broadly the anwser will be yes and if so ask how long the whole thing lasted. More than likely it was at MOST 2-3 minutes. Ask if they have ever had to call the police and if so how long it took the cops to get there, usualy their TARGET time is around 6+ minutes. So its not hard to see that the police are only there to clean up the aftermath. What do they plan to do if a couple guys with knives try to kill them or lord forbid decided they were going to molest their wife in front of them? All they can do if unarmed is watch or die, if they are armed they just might prevent it.

If you want to put it more simply you could just point out that it is every persons duty to be a peace oficer for their own lives and as such we all have just as much need and right to weapons as any cop.

 

Re: My gun ctrl argument with some Brits and a Floridian. Si

You are doing an excellent job. Keep up the good fight.
Since they are English ask them WWBD? As in "What Would Braveheart Do?"
Remember that line about "They Can Take Our Lives, But They Can Never Take Our Freedom!"

 

Re: My gun ctrl argument with some Brits and a Floridian. Si

Any updates?

 

Re: My gun ctrl argument with some Brits and a Floridian. Si

Nope..... once a couple people began supporting my side with real life stories, the anti's lost their will to fight it seems, and the thread died.

I doubt any minds got changed, maybe a "seed" got planted.... never know.

 

Re: My gun ctrl argument with some Brits and a Floridian. Si

Get an A in forensics (debate )blackjack?
Doing a great job keeping a cool head in this...

 

Re: My gun ctrl argument with some Brits and a Floridian. Si

....