Ideal Survival Rifle

Its all about terrain, there is only one way in. The road. No one will ever get a glass on us. Unless they beat us there. Swamps, lakes, hills . Our plan uses the terrain. And we do not expect to be attacked by a military force with mortars. Tanks and planes. If that be the case we play passive. First of all a person would have to have inside information on our group to even know we are here. Locals know. Locals are not military. We have 7 ex military who have fought and are good with our plan . After all they designed it. And why would I worry about 880 yards? can you say Choke point or funnel? What I said was half a mile from our homes. That means there is a place that funnels or forces intruders to use to even get to us. That is our waterloo. There are two such places and as we fall back we get tighter and tighter closer and closer together. Until the last hill. We have encrypted coms thanks to one of our monkeys as well. But yes we are confident. We are much better prepared than anyone near us. I fear more an unarmed woman with a child begging us to take them in than a group of rednecks armed with 30-30 rifles.

 

I played a game once where a guy , military guy said his group was going to launch smoke grenades in on us. I asked this. How do you know where to aim? since you never got to within half a mile of or homes how did you hit the living quarters around the lake? He then went on fantasize about sneaking in a spy with binoculars who guided the fire team. Which was bull shit because there are no vantage points where a person could spy on us from as we have the high ground . This is very hilly terrain with lots of small lakes , bottomless silt bottoms, mud, swamps, and one way in. NO ONE is going to go off the road unless they know exactly where are. And we control the two funnels in and will have blocked the road miles out with trees and other debris to keep anyone from coming in mass by vehicle. Those areas are monitored by single people WHO RADIO BACK That a force or an individual or a group is approaching. It is our ability to have eyes on them before they have eyes on us. W e control the variables not the intruders. They control nothing as they have to search as they advance. The closer they get? the more eyes on them. When the fight comes they have zero Idea who they are facing. We know exactly what we are facing. Every one of us agreed that keeping the fight away from our lake was the key. having intel on anyone approaching us long before we engage them . However since the new wave of private owned drones has come of age we have a new concern to deal with. We are also going to purchase several drones of our own for recon as well. Good job for one of the women to fly recon around the lake.

 

We are currently looking at several models of drone. Lots of guys now using them to recon hunting areas. Drones bring a huge addition to the game of who sees who first. We must also contend with eyes in space and things like google map if they are still functional. A smart raiding party or group of raiders will use some form of recon be it stealth individuals , drones or computer type use of space junk. If they are we will be using it as well to watch the surrounding areas miles away from us. Recon and intel is EVERYTHING. No one will come after us unless they know we have something they want. We dont worry about wandering starving rednecks. We can handle them easy. However a well organized and equipped group of raiders/ foragers could be trouble if they have advanced recon skills.

 

I love 30 caliber rifles. My wife has a Tika 30-06 topped with a Leopold Dimension 2 3 by 9 by 40 scope. It is a tack driver and good out to much farther than any of us will ever have a target as the terrain here is all under 100 yards shots. My 30-06 is a Thomson Center Icon which is slightly better than hers with the same scope. Both are sub 1 inch groupers at 100 yards. W e shoot hunting ammunition from them. We own two AR-15 rifles one is a dpms Oracle light weight the other a nice Anderson build Chrome lined barrel and such. Both are dead nuts on out to 100 yards. We are in the process of selling her Remington 1187 28 gauge Remington. Built back in the 60's mint condition. Once we sell that we are getting a third AR with a longer barrel and a varmint scope. It will be another Anderson build topped with most likely a Leopold varmint scope. The two carbines have Burris 332 red green black scopes which are very fast to target and work even after the batteries die. You spoke about traps and we also use them. But the .22 is right now. its quicker and easier than setting traps. Im a hunter not a trapper so my suppressed 981-T IS MY GO TO HUNTING RIFLE. I did tests on deer heads with it. Most of the guys here have seen the pics of the bullet, the hole, the expansion and brain matter. I kill deer every year here with cross bow and rifle. I will not waste a 30-06 round on a deer. They are way to precious and when one shot from a .22 will drop a deer like a sack of potatoes why use up a defensive round? Also I do not have silencers for any of the battle rifles. We have one suppressor for the .22 . AND NO WE DO NOT SHOOT DEER IN THE CHEST WITH .22 ROUNDS. That would be foolish. Head shots behind the eyes from the side or between the eyes or between the ears to the central brain cavity. My rifle is dime sized accurate out to 50 yards. I have need of no further shots here. Deer here are shot over bait which we grow here. The shots are 20 yards and under. But still can shoot out to 100 yards and almost match the Thomson center and Tika for accuracy. The 981-t is a tack driver. I make head shots on Chipmunks at 30 yards easy. That is dime accuracy. The scope is a Redfield revolution varmint scope 2 by 7 by 40. Ill put it against ANY other gun for clean game harvesting out to 50 yards.

I am of the mind set that an empty rifle is worth nothing. I am not a rich man so buying tens of thousands of 30 cal rounds or even 5.56 was not an option. I wanted a base rifle that would feed us for the rest of my life and my sons life. I could only afford to do this with .22 ammo. And When I bought it? I stacked it deep enough to do just that. Standard velocity 1250 fps solid 40 grain bullets. ALL PACKED IN AIR TIGHT AMMO CANS WITH DESICANTS. Since then we buy shotgun, 5.56 /.223 and 30-06 when it is on sale or clearance stuff. I purchased a hand loader off craigs list and have the dies for 30-06 and 5.56 . Buying powder , primers and brass working tools for resizing etc. In time Ill have 5,000 rounds of both .30 cal and 5.56 Not there yet. We covered food first, defense second. Lots of folks go the other way. Not me. I have military guys handling that part of our plan. Im still the old field support guy to them. I can shoot as well as any of them and better than some. We all agreed that the patrol/battle rifles needed to be matching rounds so the AR-15 was chosen because the ammo was lighter and we could carry more. .308 is better. Its more powerful, hits harder, goes through more cover etc.etc.etc. Just cant carry enough of it to suit us. But we use the 30-06 rifles in the one place where they are best used and that is looking out over the choke points on the Road where 200 yard shot would be possible. One of guys has a serbu single shot .50 bmg. The same guy also owns a .338. He is an ex Marine sniper. He is the best long range shooter I have ever seen up close though I have not seen very many long range shooters.

 

Even a Mountain Pinnacle has 360 degrees of entry ways in. History has shown repetitively, how effective surprise attacks from hitherto un-navigable terrain have upset the best of plans. I'm not even going to delve into the daily caloric requirements for a group the size of which you describe. So I'm pretty sure Y'all will run out of little critters before running out of 22LR.

Since I have explained that I'm a believer in Evasion & Escape, it will come as no shock that I feel the best place to be when SHTF is anywhere else. Being Retired Military, any of the multitude of Government installations in my AO are rest stops. If it gets so bad that the Military isn't able to control the situation, exit east to the open sea. The only reason that I might need to expend even one round, is to draw a hostile party towards me as others escape. In such a situation it would be in my best interest to make the hostiles cross open water to engage me, and allow me the cover of open water to evade & escape on my way to rendezvous. Any fortification would be nothing more than a way point on the route out. So it's understandable that we have such a difference of opinions on what would make an "Ideal Survival Rifle". But since the ancient USMC MOS 8541 Training Course was part of my Navy Cross training, my opinions may have more in common with your Old ( isn't any such thing as an EX-MARINE) Marine friend.

 

Times and places.

I'd LOVE to be able to get 20 yard shots on deer!

 

I shot my buck this year at 7 yards. Crossbow bolt behind the left shoulder. Expandable spitfire broad head. He went about 40 yards. The bolt was reusable the head was toast. Those heads cost 30 bucks for three. I bought 500 .22 rounds for 19.99 . Just a little price comparison. As for caloric intake , we all have gardens. I raise chickens and rabbits and grow their feed. 5 acres of our land is producing food. The lake is a bluegill factory meaning it is full of edible fish. We are on the flyway meaning ducks and geese use our lake as part of the migration route. Have you ever considered bugging out to a place like ours? we could use another military man with battle skills. We have 7 now. And yes you nailed it. We will never run out of .22 rounds. Not in my life time or my sons. We will have the means to harvest game as long as it takes for society to return to normal. Using defensive rounds for taking game is the one thing we wont be doing here. You see we took all that into consideration. How do we feed 30 to 50 people? How do we defend this lake and our food production? Our assets are water, fish, wild game, tame food animals, garden produce, cat tails, water liley, Acorns, fruit trees, and yes food stores of 25 year shelf life survival foods. You see you need ALL of these things to survive. You dont find those things running unless you take them from others. We bugged out in 2008 . It took 5 years to get our plan working and we still have one family living here who think the rest of us are crazy. They will run to the fema camp when shtf. Good riddance. My home has what we call a barracks area in the garage for a 5 man Militia team. The leader is a sere trained Para rescue (air force ) who served in Iraq. He is good but lives in the city . He keeps his food stores here along with his ammunition supply cache. We are that place , anywhere but where you are. We are Isolated , away from main roads, off the beaten path. Dense woodlands of Oak forests, small lakes and swamps. The ground is the best defensible ground for a hundred miles. Choke points are the key. There is only one way in UNLESS. You know the area, know we are here, know what we have etc. No one in their right mind would just wander out into this terrain on a random search. Raiders will use roads. When they find something of interest they will fan out , flanking (if they are smart) . However then they run into things like swamps with bottomless silt. Rivers, streams and all of this is over a half mile from us. Without air recon or google earth no one will even know we are here. Advanced intel is the key to our not being found or being found.

 

Water is life and putting water between you and an adversary is a great defense. Slow moving boats are easy targets. We almost bought property on an Island in Lake Michigan but the cost was so high. Also thought about loading up the boat and heading to say Beaver Island or Mackinaw Island but food BECOMES AN ISSUE. I love the fort but how much food ? What about fresh water? fruit? vitamins etc. calories, carbs , protein? Resupply man. I think what we built has about as good a chance as anyone of surviving and bringing our kids and grand kids through any collapse. The thought of trying to take children out on the road running is just insane. In a small group like ours we have people to keep the kids quiet, fed, consoled. There is no other choice for us. And again , we dont disagree on the best survival rifle. I simply do not think that there is a single best survival weapon. For me here it is a .22 rifle. If I were trapped on the top floor of a 100 floor high rise it would be a good hand gun. If were stranded on the great plains with shots being 400 to 600 yards and longer it would be a 300 win mag or a .338 or similar. Jungles terrain, dense forested lands, everglades, house to house city? maybe a good shotgun or semi auto carbine. Cowboys survived for years with lever action carbines and pistols that use the same round. So , no. I DONT BUY IT. THERE IS NO BEST SURVIVAL WEAPON. If you are well trained you can use it all. I am good with any of my weapons. I was told this by my buddy the para rescue guy. An amateur practices, trains until they get it right. A pro trains until he cant get it wrong. I am somewhere in between but still working on it. I see survival as extending my life and the lives of the people I love for as long as possible. Providing comfort to the little ones, safety, a warm bed, a full belly. I cant do any more and will not do any less. There are zero ways to do that running. Bugging out is a fools errand and with children, women, babies etc? impossible on foot. I would not wish that on anyone. For the lone wolf? its different. The lone wolf makes his way across the land carefully. He avoids contact, eats bugs and rodents. Wild plants, he conserves his ammo no matter what he carries and has in my opinion a very bleak outlook as to how long he lives. If it were me I would not go east but north into the cold where most would flee from. I would go wilderness, cabin north. Wood stove , garden, Isolation. I would go mad in a couple years.

 

KF, if you don't mind me asking, what kind of snow fall do you folks get up there on average? Do you have to contend with Lake effect snow/weather?

 

Yes we get sometimes several feet of snow. Lake effect from Lake Michigan reaches most of the lower pen. Snow is one of the reasons we chose this place. Once roads are impassible by vehicles everything comes to a halt. Except for those of us who are prepared for winter. I will never run out of firewood or things to do in the winter. 5 of the 8 houses here heat with wood as the main heat source two others have fireplaces and the other a wood stove in his garage. I am surrounded by literally thousands of acres of Oak forests. I have enough mature Oak on my land for 5 or 6 years so we cut now 5 miles out with federal harvest permits saving the wood closest to us. To maintain this we keep spare parts for our stoves , saws and have learned long term gasoline storage for gas and oil for our saws and our quad. I currently have enough fuel stored to cut ten years worth of fire wood before we have to resort to hand saws, axes and hand carts. By then we will be cutting the wood on my land. I keep a three year supply of wood on hand at all times. Our plan requires us to go quiet for the first year. Live on the lake and the stores and stay warm dry and healthy and wait for information. Patrol, listen and watch. Year two if things are quiet we will send out a team to recon a 2 mile radius and if clear start cutting more wood well inside that radius. . The wood cutting crew will be protected by a fire team. Growing food is paramount , keeping the animals fed keeps us fed. One of my neighbors has goats. He is the milkman. Several of us have chickens, enough eggs for everyone here to eat an egg a day. We have a lot of good fishermen and women in the group. Fish will be a staple here. My neighbor has the perfect ground for growing potatoes. He can ramp up in no time to grow enough for everyone. W e all grow tomatoes, beans and other things like corn and squash. W e will actually have enough for barter if that ever comes to be. Fresh water has been solved. We have an Amish community about 6 miles from us. They are pretty self reliant even today. I am hoping to trade with them. We have to get there first. However we will never stop improving our odds. Like minded people. Learning how to live together in a small close knit community.

One other thing, I have personally decided to ramp up my food p[roduction to be able to feed 10 people. we have 6 here. I have expressed this to the rest and they agree that having more is better than not enough.

 

Piddled around in Paradise, rode the root beer falls, honeymooned on Mackinac Island, crewed in the regatta, served as a diver in the CPD Marine Unit, guided canoe trips into the Quetico Provincial, that's why I decided that it was the Tropical Salt Life for me. Once I unfurl the main sail on the SS Minnow, it's straight to Gilligan's Island for all those entrusted to my care. The best way to survive is to stay far from the Frey, in my opinion. There is nothing like the open Ocean and overseas bank accounts, to ensure that it would take a global crisis to effect the lifestyle I have crafted for the Grand Children. Truth be told I've found nowhere better than the Good Old US of A, but if things get bad enough that the American Military can't control the situation at Home..... I'm prepared for a hiatus, skipping from uninhabited island to island until I find the comfort of civilization once again. I've had enough experience dealing with mans inhumanity to fellow men, to ever allow the innocents of my bloodline to experience such atrocities as long as I am able to direct the scenario. I Thank You for considering/offering a chance to exist within Y'all's Utopia, but I was born under a wandering star. (reference Paint Your Wagon)

The members of my clan understand I have no trouble sheering the sheep, and taking from others to provide for thier good. Nothing is more imperative than the well being of my clan. But even they distance themselves from me under civilized conditions, as it is hard for Old Dogs to change their ways. Those that truly ponder an "Ideal Survival Rifle" shall be shunned once the critical situations have come to pass. JMHO.

 

Got the tee shirt BTPost, feasted on more than one Roosevelt Elk, experienced all the mainland and traveled out to Shemya under individual orders via Uncle Sam's request.While leaning on a rock at the dump in ADAK, I got an American Bald Eagle experience, canoed the Kodiak, while the fishing is fantastic not being able to use a treble hook for salmon wasn't. Just wasn't able to convince myself that this was the place I belonged in. So, I'll take flip flops on the warm beach sand over Tundra Stomping!

 

My father also loved the salt water. He died in Florida. Im a snow man through and through. I like it cool and dry , not sweltering and humid. I might like Maine and I love Canada. and our Upper peninsula. Cant go there until the wifes mom passes away. Both her and I love the north.

 

Have to admit that is some pretty country. Well worth the time to see. Don't forget the Yukon. Although you might want to take a shotgun if you head up there. (Last time I went there, I heard one mosquito ask the other if they should eat me or take me back home with them. The second one told the first that they better just eat me, if they dragged me home the big ones would take me away from them.)

 

Danger of me going some where like that is , I'd get lost and not want to come back home.

 

Depends on where "HOME" is.
After I've shot six holes in the freezer, I've got to go somewhere warm!

 

Back on thread, For me there is no perfect tool for "Survival" so any fire arm is going to be a compromise and you know what they say about Jack of all Trades, Master of None! so that becomes the great debate, one which has no definitive answer.
I look at it a few ways, First, I am not actively hunting others of my species, and I am not out looking for a fight, nor am I out on patrol actively betraying my presence. I may be posted up in an over watch position, but that becomes risky if facing those that know what they are doing. I have no delusions of using my weapon(s) to hunt game/food with, and so the only reason I have a firearm(s) at all is purely for protection/defense of self and those with me. I personally choose a 7.62X51 as my go to and I choose it in a long proven semi auto Battle Rifle. Of the many rifles that I could choose from, this one makes the most sence from a defensive postilion. I can carry it all day, every day, I have enough range and stopping power to be effective both defensively and offensively, and I can get ammo any where for it, and I can reload for it easily enough with hand tools out in the wilds! This is the harsh reality of a true survival situation, putting your self in an offensive position against better any thing/every thing is nothing but a bad ending to you, and having that ultra long range tool is useless in close and usually extreamly heavy to boot. Too small and you loose much of the advantages you might otherwise have had, so it becomes a trade off in my opinion best mitigated with a mid power .30!

 

M14/M1A, MK20/SCAR,SR25/AR10?