Chicks in combat? What's next?

Where's the dislike button?

 

Their successful completion of the course does at least help in taking this question out of the hypothetical realm, and pushing it into the realm of facts. I still don't think we'll see women in Marine Corps infantry units any time soon; but these test groups will provide some factual information for the debate; in contrast to the voluminous hyperbole which currently dominates the debate.

 

I think the whole system is flawed.. (Doctor Obvious speaking!) I think the whole thing should be more inspiring and challenging. It is not fair that only men have to register. If the US was more fit, women could be bettet at keeping up. I hate to say that physically, the genders aren't equal, but we aren't. BUT, we both have our strengths, as well as the weaknesses. Time old tale, men don't give birth right? And there are other differences, like my workout-aholic, man's man husband - scared of bugs and spiders. I myself love spiders, snakes and have had many pet rats.. So it isn't fair to say we are not as good as men. Furthermore, no man is the same; there are as many strong men as there are weak or even overweight.. Just as it is with women. I've known some women who were actually stronger than guys I have known, physically, and there are more kinds of strengths than that. I suppose it is that "can do, WILL do" pride and for my own benefits that I have turned to physical fitness and weight training despite being at a healthy weight.

 

That's it? 20km (12 mi.) and only 80 lbs?

Damn, the Corps has really gone soft!

 

They had a story earlier this week about how kids now run a mile 90seconds slower than we did when we were kids back in the 80's. Too many kids today are out of shape and lazy! Also they have no real problem solving skills. Its like all the teaching facts for the thats has stunted their mental growth. I think the bigger problem is with how fat, lazy, crazy, stupid and morally corrupt we have become will we be able to fill the military with qualified people at all?

 

There is quite a lot happening in the military lately along the lines of this thread:
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Marines Open Experimental Combat Unit to Women
Mar 13, 2014 | by Michael Hoffman and Richard Sisk
EXCERPTS:
The Marine Corps will open a stateside combat unit to women to collect data for the military's overall effort to integrate them into combat roles by 2016.

Females will make up a quarter of the 460-Marine unit and be placed in infantry squads, artillery gun sections, and tank crews, officials said. A male Marine will serve as the commander and a female Marine will be placed as the task force sergeant major.

The unit will be called the Ground Combat Element Experimental Task Force. Its purpose will be to "evaluate the physical performance of individual Marine volunteers in the execution of individual and collective tasks in an operational environment," according to a release from the Corps.

Capt. Maureen Krebs, a spokeswoman for the service, said all Marines will be receiving informational material and volunteers will be requested later this spring. The unit was expected to be formed in the fall at Camp Lejeune, N.C., Krebs said.
.....

In November 2013, the three female Marines became the first women to graduate from the Marine's enlisted infantry training course. So far, 40 female Marines have completed it. The Marine Infantry Officer Course was also opened to women, though of the 14 women to try, none have yet graduated.
.....

Men and women will have to meet the same physical standard within the Task Force. The exact specifications of that standard have yet to be decided.
.....

Military brass has made a point to emphasize that physical standards will not be lowered to accommodate women and those requirements remain a challenge for both genders.
Marines Open Experimental Combat Unit to Women | Military.com

Females Take on New Roles in JBLM Combat Brigades
The News Tribune | Mar 13, 2014 | by Adam Ashton
EXCERPTS:
Capt. Pete Middleton had his choice of two rookie lieutenants he could bring in to his artillery battery last summer. One was a man, the other a woman applying for a traditionally all-male Army assignment.

Middleton picked the lieutenant who had better test scores coming out of artillery school.

And just like that, Lt. Taylor Cardosi became the first female officer assigned to a Lewis-McChord howitzer battery.

Now she's about to begin a new assignment giving her more responsibility as an artillery platoon leader.

"I just do my job," Cardosi said, deflecting attention from her first-in-the-Army assignment.

Cardosi's posting at the base south of Tacoma was a small milestone in the Army's integration of female soldiers into front-line combat roles that had been barred to them, even as they took on increasing responsibilities in the Iraq and Afghanistan wars.

The Army formally lifted gender restrictions on Cardosi's job -- howitzer fire direction officer -- in December. Over the next two years, the Defense Department is opening thousands more jobs to female troops.

At Lewis-McChord, the changing roles are most pronounced in the six combat brigades that make up the 7th Infantry Division. It's staffed with about 20,000 troops under infantry, artillery, aviation, engineer and intelligence brigades.

Since last year, 30 female soldiers in the division have moved into assignments that are newly available to women, said division spokesman Lt. Col. Joe Sowers said. Cardosi's is one of those jobs.

Another 70 female soldiers have moved closer to the front lines. For example, women previously could serve as medics or intelligence soldiers in the headquarters for large units.
.....

The base also has about 3,500 Army special operators in nearly all-male units. Army Special Operations Command is conducting a study looking at how female soldiers might be integrated into Ranger and Special Forces units.

In June, the Special Operations Command opened all positions in its helicopter unit -- the 160th Special Operations Aviation Regiment -- to women. No female soldiers have yet qualified to be a SOAR pilot, said Army Special Operations Command spokeswoman Maj. Allison Aguilar.
.....
Females Take on New Roles in JBLM Combat Brigades | Military.com

Army: Some Men Won't Pass New Combat Physical
Mar 13, 2014 | by Bryant Jordan
EXCERPTS:
The Army's top enlisted soldier said new physical standards being developed as part of the policy change to open combat positions to women will be applied across the entire service, which could have a number of second order consequences that apply to men as well.

"Here's the reality. Once we actually have the physical assessment -- based on it, we are going to go back to the force and expect soldiers... to be able to meet that standard," Sgt. Maj. of the Army Raymond Chandler III said in a speech before the Army Women's Foundation at the U.S. Capitol on Wednesday.

"Notice I said soldiers -- not male soldiers, not female soldiers -- it's all soldiers," he said. "And I guarantee you there will probably be some males who have been doing it for quite some time that are not going to be able to meet that standard."
.....

In Washington on Wednesday, retired Maj. Gen. Dee Ann McWilliams, president of the Women's Army Foundation, said that with the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan women have often acted in combat roles.

"They did everything [infantrymen did] but without the MOS," she said.

Just how much of a role women will have in the combat roles depends on a number of factors, including physical standards that, as yet, have not been established, McWiliams said.

"Without [those] established, you can't say," she said. But once they are in place, "that will cut some of the men out, too, which it doesn't now because we don't have the standards."
.....
Army: Some Men Won't Pass New Combat Physical | Military.com

 

"some men won't pass the test"

Is that the best the SMA can come up with? Reality check: There have always been men that can't pass the PT test. That is why the military has a PT test. If everyone could pass you would not need the darn test

This is not rocket science, just base the PT standards on the actual mission and if you pass the test you pass, if you don't you find another line of work. I have no doubt they are testing women and men to see what specific test women can pass but not men, that way it will "equal". I can see it now: "The next event will be the "waist bend chair pick up" to pass you must bend over at the waist at 90 degrees and pick up a chair 6 inches off the ground, this event tests your ability to recover a dropped magazine after you were startled by a big bang outside your dorm room".

My question to the SMA would be, why are you working on a new test, you said before the old test was just fine when it was men that had to pass it?

I have said it before and I will say it again, as long as the PT standards are based on the mission, and everyone meets the standards, I don't care what is in their DNA. or how many X or Y chromosomes they have. All this evaluating of new PT tests is just cover for normalization of standards.

 

Well I personally think a well trained woman is in most cases can be alot more of a threat then a man in many areas. For starters I really don't consider The US Or Canada to be top notch when it comes to training in the first place, men or woman JMO (trained with Both)
What I do no are many times a woman will listen to training instruction much better and most times there attention to detail is light years ahead of many men, Many of the best marksmen have been marks woman, That I have shot with.
I do however think most times a woman will be physically weaker and smaller in size but, With training designed around that a woman can be just a deadly as any man. And that would be a fact.

Sam Colt should have said "I made all people equal "

 

I agree a woman can be as good if not better than a man. What I disagree with is designing training standards around a man or a woman, the mission determines the standards, not the strength or gender of the individual. A wounded or injured team mate does not weigh less depending on who is carrying them. The enemy does not punch and kick less based on who they are fighting. An M240 weighs the same no matter who is carrying it.

Equality can only happen when we stop worrying about the DNA of the person and start worrying about the mission.

 

Its a tuff one I was 5'8 ,225 lbs when I deployed and half my squad couldn't carry me even being Infantry most of my platoon weighed less then 170. I found until you hit higher levels of training in the Army (Rangers etc..) hand to hand was limited unless you were training outside the military . Its a tricky one and if they can figure it out I think it would work well.

 

I have no problem with the new tests, it's the scoring. What they are doing is testing men and women, and running stats on pass/fail with the goal of ensuring an "Equitable" pass rates for women.

What they should have been doing is studying our folks in combat over the last ten years and basing the tests and scores on what they actually have to do to accomplish the mission.

From the article:

"Soldiers will be required to hurdle over gates, negotiate barricades, drag a casualty, balance with weighted ammo cans, maneuver through a simulated shooting course, do 100 yards of wind sprints and weave through a slalom course."

All that sounds great...If they do it with the same gear they wear in combat. It would be down right silly to run folks through a simulated combat PT test, and not have them wear all their gear. "Maneuver through a simulated shooting course" without a full combat load is no more realistic than dropping and doing 20 pushups.

 

I stopped reading at page 16.
A 130 lb man COULD, in fact, lift a 220 lb man and carry him out of a fire fight, unless that man was unfit to be in the military to begin with.
I'm a big supporter of equality and I believe women should have every opportunity men have, but. I'm sorry to break it to everyone that has said otherwise, but it does come down to DNA. The reason a 130 lb man can lift more than double his own body weight and a woman of the same weight cannot is because men have superior upper body strength.
The "kick the piss out of" test may not make sense if you want to pick it apart and be a know it all about it, but it makes sense to a woman who has fought men. A man and woman of equal height and weight and equal training are not equal; a woman actually needs to be bigger than a man to be stronger-and if you want to post an article and a picture of five women proving this wrong, congratulations, be my guest.
I'm 5'3" and 160 when fit-I am not a body builder, I'm not "big boned", and I can kick the piss out of a lot of men.
I also cannot kick the piss out of most men that are prepared for it.
Yeah, women can do whatever men can do...that's why PT requirements say otherwise.

You know what? I'm glad birth control can control the crimson tide. Now, why don't you just tell your CO that you need your baby stopper pills so can he, like, go get your prescription? Because you ran out and the flood is about to HIT. Sorry, baby cakes, we don't do deliveries.

Know what else? Yeah, I can drag my man (6'3" 250 lb) unconscious for 200 feet; I'm confident in that. Picking his unconscious body up in a fireman's carry? Yeah, if I've got ten minutes to play, probably. Don't have ten minutes? Aw, sh--, babe...I'll see you later, ok??

Women haven't qualified for combat before because they don't even qualify for regular f::&$; PT; and then they whine that we're all equal and should be treated the same, but so many would b7::!:& about getting treated the same.

Know what else? Women remind Marines/soldiers/POGs of home. That's why they show up pregnant, because MFers all think they're at home or some shjshdhdj. Or you laugh JUST LIKE his aunt, or when you smile? You look like his mom. The way you talk reminds him of his sister. And your inappropriate, powder puff hugs remind him of home, especially because magically in the middle of all the garbage on HIS body right now, you've been at the FOB and still smell like a woman.
Men are raised to take care of women, whether we as women care/appreciate/hate/believe that or not, and it has a negative effect when you mix that into a combat zone.

You know what a big reason behind it all is? THE MARINES I KNOW DONT WANT TO HAVE TO SIT AROUND WITH YOU LOUDMOUTH BSJSJSJSJ WHO, EVERY TIME YOU GET TOGETHER, HAVE TO TALK ABOUT YOUR FJSHSJSJ CRAMPS. YOU ARE EITHER A D*** SWINGING MARINE LIKE THE REST OF THE MEN, OR YOU ARE A FEMALE THAT SHOULD HAVE STAYED HOME.
AND I WILL TAKE MY INVISID*** AND JAM IT SO FAR DOWN YOUR THROAT YOU CANT CHOKE ABOUT YOUR CRAMPS.

Whew. I feel better. Bottom line? The chicks who belong there have already been there and didn't need a poster about it. The ones who are screaming about it now should just shut the !!!! up.

Hey, I don't know if Pyrrhus is still reading this or not. I've got twelve weeks on the oven bun left; give me a month after that to train. After that, wanna kick the piss outta me? Lol Afterward we can come on here and talk about it.
Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe in a Herculean feat, with him prepared for it and all, I'll kick the piss outta him and then I'll have to get combat proficient certified.

 

Nah. No interest in kicking the piss out of you. It was always a question of ability rather than desire, which is what some can't seem to grasp.

Besides, I got fed up with it, took my bat and ball, and went home. I no longer have a vested interest in which the Marine Corps or any other branch of the military does. If you want to talk about oil and gas exploration and production, that's fine. If you want to talk about the military, you'll just get the familiar veteran's refrain of "How much they've screwed things up since I was in".

As far as those who are sad about what I said to chelloveck, if that makes you sad, you should have heard some of the things to officers and gentlemen in the Marine Corps who I liked. Sticks and stones ladies, sticks and stones.

 

IOC update: (I'm very surprised the standards weren't lowered, but it's the Marines after all.)

Last IOC in Marine infantry experiment drops female officers

The two-and-a-half year period in which the Marine Corps' Infantry Officer Course became gender-integrated for research will end without a single female graduate.

The final iteration of IOC to accept female Marines on a volunteer basis began April 2 with two female participants. One was a volunteer and one was a member of the newly integrated ground intelligence track.

Both were dropped that same day during the grueling initial Combat Endurance Test, said Capt. Maureen Krebs, a spokeswoman for Headquarters Marine Corps. Nine of the 90 men who began the course were also cut.

IOC, held quarterly at Marine Corps Base Quantico, Virginia, began accepting female officers fresh out of training in September 2012 as part of a larger research effort into the feasibility of opening ground combat jobs to women. Lieutenants who made it through the legendarily tough 86-day course would not receive an infantry military occupational specialty or career advancement; they did it only for the challenge and the hope of being part of a historical Marine Corps achievement.

But as the research continued, few volunteers took advantage of the opportunity. By July 2014, only 20 female officers had attempted the course. Only one made it through the Combat Endurance Test, and none made it to the end.

In an effort to achieve their goal of 100 female volunteers cycling through IOC, the Marine Corps opened the course to female company-grade officers in October 2014, making hundreds more Marines eligible for the course. The Corps also began requiring that volunteers get a first-class score on the male version of the service's Physical Fitness Test in an effort to better prepare them for the rigors of IOC.

The effort was a mixed success. In the October iteration of IOC, three of the seven female volunteers made it through the Combat Endurance Test, bringing the total number of women to pass the test to four. Two of those who passed the test were captains from the fleet. As time passed, no influx of volunteers materialized, however.

The testing period ends with just 27 female volunteers having attempted the course. Two other female officers also attempted the course as part of required ground intelligence officer training. The 0203 ground intelligence officer military occupational specialty was opened to female officers in late 2013, with IOC as a qualification requirement for applicants. None of the 29 female officers made it to the end of the course.

While IOC is closing to volunteers, female applicants for ground intelligence officer positions will continue to attend the course in the future, Krebs said.

Officials have said that ongoing research will consider many aspects of temporarily integrating IOC, including the number of volunteers, their pass rate, and performance in the course. That data will be taken alongside other research points, including the much higher success rate for enlisted female Marines in passing the Infantry Training Battalion course at Camp Lejeune, North Carolina. As of February, 358 women had attempted the course, with 122 graduates, for a pass rate of 34 percent.

Also considered will be data generated from the Ground Combat Element Integrated Task Force, which is conducting assessments with male and female troops in a variety of infantry specialties now on the West Coast. All this information will be compiled this summer and used to inform Commandant Gen. Joseph Dunford's recommendation to the secretary of Defense on whether or not to open remaining ground combat units to female troops.

A decision is expected from the Pentagon early next year.

 

I'm not surprised at these results... I don't think women belong in front line combat... Should women be trained in combat... Absolutely but for several reasons women don't belong front line.

1) most not all don't have physical stamina or
2) mental ability to compartmentalize but the most important reason women don't belong on front lines...
3) it makes men weak.... Biologically men are designed to protect women and no matter how much he women want that to be different it won't EVER change.

Men will protect a woman rather than be 100% focused on work and no matter how much we try to pretend this isn't true... It not going away.

It really not the women that are the problem..
It's biology

 

You should breed...and give your sister my email address.

 

I would like for the Mil to just shut up and do it.

All the Media Blitz is really just Media BS.

 

Eglin Air Force Base Welcomes First Female F-35 Pilot

UPI | May 07, 2015

Lt. Col. Christine Mau became the first female F-35 Lightning II pilot after she began training near Valparaiso, Fla. at the Eglin Air Force Base.

Mau, the 33rd Fighter Wing Operations Group deputy commander, completed 14 virtual training missions before her first training flight in the single-seat fifth-generation fighter, according to a statement released by the Eglin Air Force Base.

She formerly flew an F-15E Strike Eagle.

"It wasn't until I was taxiing to the runway that it really struck me that I was on my own in the jet," Mau said. "I had a chase aircraft, but there was no weapons system officer or instructor pilot sitting behind me, and no one in my ear like in simulators."

Mau joins 87 other F-35 pilots who have trained in the last four years at Eglin Air Force Base.

"It felt great to get airborne. The jet flies like a dream, and seeing the systems interact is impressive. Flying with the Helmet Mounted Display takes some adjusting, but it's an easy adjustment," Mau said. "The training missions in the simulator prepare you very well, so you're ready for that flight."

Although she may be the first female in the F-35 program, Mau said gender has no relevance to her performance as a pilot. Women have served in combat aviation roles in those and other aircraft for more than 20 years, according to Eglin Air Force Base.

"Flying is a great equalizer," Mau said. "The plane doesn't know or care about your gender as a pilot, nor do the ground troops who need your support. You just have to perform. That's all anyone cares about when you're up there - that you can do your job, and that you do it exceptionally well."
Eglin Air Force Base Welcomes First Female F-35 Pilot | Military.com