Survival with body armor?

Helmets can and do stop rifle fire. They have stopped every pistol round that I have ever fired at them. I have shot over 12 old style Kevlars (PASGT) with different rifle and pistol fire. Short range direct shots, they won't stop 5.56 or 7.62 x 51 on the first layer, but no 5.56 was able to penetrate the second side. So, if the bullet is coming from any distance or lost any energy due to shorter barrel, window glass, dry wall, or whatever, it may have stopped before penetrating the first layer. 7.62 x51 and .30-06 will go straight through both sides like a knife through hot butter. It will stop AK rounds about %50 of the time depending on the angle. The MP museum has a PASGT that a airborne paratroop was wearing in Panama, where a AK was put up to his head and fired. The round is imbedded in the helmet. A Kevlar will stop just about every ricochette round fired at it, which is common when you are in the prone. I called and talked to a contractor at Gentex that I know and the ACH has even better ballistic characteristics than the PASGT. I haven't worked up the nerve yet to shuck out $300 to shoot one, but give me time, I will find a way. A helmet is a valuable tool in just about any SHTF situation.
As for the armor, you are correct, if a round comes between the plate and your chest, it will gut you, but the same is true if it comes between the ground and your chest. Being a MEDEVAC pilot, I have seen what the armor can do in a wide variety of situations. The MEDCOM has even come out and said that the number of life taking injuries are way down because of the effectiveness of the issued armor, but now the injuries that are being brought in are more traumatic because previously unsurvivable incidences are now survivable with some impacts not even being brought to the rear. Where most kill wounds used to be thorasic, they are now head wounds because the armor is so effective.
You discount armor for only assault troops, yet there have been several scenarios given on this thread where non assault troops could benefit from some type of armor. You have mentioned several scenarios where if you are hit in certain areas, the armor isn't going to do any good, well, if you don't have armor, you ain't gonna fair any better!
In a SHTF scenario, what type of ammo are you probably going to be up against? Predominately pistols, shotguns, and low velocity rounds. Say, maybe shotguns with birdshot, buck and slugs, 9mm, .44 mag, and .45s? Just so happens that I have a vest shot with a 12 guage slug, 9mm, .44 mag, and a .45. None of the rounds with the exception of the 9mm penetrated the first layer and it only seperated the first four layers! Those are the bullets that were laying inside the outer cover when I pulled it out. Each bullet was placed against it's corresponding impact point

In the bottom left corner, you can see where two 5.56 rounds penetrated the soft armor all the way through. The one hole in the center bottom was a AK round from 15 feet, and while it penetrated as well, by the last few layers, it was beginning to yaw to the point that just a few more layers and it wouldn't have exited. So, I surmise that while having soft armor may not stop everything, it definitely has it's place in the SHTF world. Yes, it is hot, but your TAC vest is going to be hot as well, requiring increased hydration.
I appologize that I don't have any Kevlar pictures as they were shot long before I ever got a digital camera.

 

We get daily weather updates and it is hovering around 120 right now. Housing is a lot cheaper, but what is funny, to make concrete, they have to import the sand because the Iraqi sand is crap for concrete!!!

 

No, I'm not training with armor. But that is due to limited funds, not lack of faith in it.

I would like some IIIA with a trauma plate or two, nothing fancy. Something that could fit under my current web gear if needed. I envision it being used for static defense, not for bug out. (Side note: Just got back from the Smokies, 3 day trip, 25ish miles, 40-50 lb. packs, no weapons. I don't know how the soldiers do it.... I'm still recovering!). Maybe used while driving....maybe even at the range. Never know how safe the guy on the next line is.

As for helmets, if I spring for a vest or two, might as well get the brain bucket to match. Let me know sniper what you find that works and what doesn't.

Thanks,
phishi

 

I will watch and study what is working and not working while I am over there. It is to bad that I find out now that a lot of people would like armor. I had about 30 sets that I picked up in a trade and couldn't get rid of it to save my life, so I sold it to a guy at a loss to get rid of it. Now I could kick my own ass for doing that. Could of had a SM sale!

 

Ok I will be the first to admit armor sucks. It's hot, it binds it chafs it restricts movements, it's heavy and as a side note always notice how when you put a necktie on you get that itch just a little below the middle of where your necktie is? Try itching your back with armor on. On the up side it blocks alot of lil nasty lead projectiles that might be flying your way.
As far as the plating that will deflect the round up or down into you. Well you can stop that from happining for the most part. You just put a layer of Kevlar in front of the plate. the round hits the kevlar and twists it as it impacts the plate.
No body armor is not the save all. Nothing is, nothing ever will be. However when you don't have to move much or don't have to move fast its worth its weight in gold. You will get used to wearing the armor, you may not like it but you will get used to it.
With the used armor thing well lets look at it this way. If you get hit with somthing that penetrates your used armor and kills you then realisticly it would kill you if you Weren't wearing armor at all. If you be dead then the fact that you spent money on a useless item is really pretty mute. If you get hit and die because you weren't wearing armor and you have a pocket full of cash then guess what.... IT'S STILL a mute point. Now for the sake of arguement lets just say that your used body armor gets shot with you in it from a 44 mag. Lets also say that it since it be old it fails. Now given that fact even with it failing it will still make the slug mushroom out and slow it down. so instead of it creating a nice massive hole most of the way thru you it looses some of its steam and you STILL have a better chance for survival then before.
So exactly why is body armor bad even if it be used??

Take care Be safe Poacher.

 

On all new SAPI plates that have been coming out for some time now have spall layers to prevent bullets from richochetting into your face. The groin guard, while cheesy looking, anything that protects the twins and big brother is always welcome.
As for the rest of your statement Poacher, spot on. I can always elect to not wear the vest and/or plates if I don't want them, can't wish it into existence if I don't have them.

 

well speaking as one that wore a Vest for over 15 years and have Survived wearing one. it worth every Damn penny you put in it .

Back in 1989 on a Traffic stop, a 17 year old male that was Dusted with PCP pulled and shoot me twice with a 357mag. 158gr Hollow points in the chest and side. the Second chance vest worked and if you tell me to buy more ammo other then a VESTt you are very sadly Mistaken. Like Poacher stated they are HOT, Chaffing,and very hard on you for long time frames.

But anyone that says a Vest is a Waste of money needs to visit the Second Chance website and look at all the officers, other that have had a SECOND CHANCE at life by wearing one.

I will now step off the soap box and let you think about it .

Doc

SC #133

 

With enough heat it would make good glass.

 

I am sure that it would be like most other middle eastern products, it would be a poor grade glass at best! Probably couldn't even sell it on eBay and you can sell anything there!

 

I was thinking about knee pads and got some.... was also thinking about elbow pads and wondering about what the recommendations on those are.... also some good gloves... training with gloves is a pain.... but don't wanna get the hands all shredded.... for that matter my knees or elbows either....

One hour on the treadmill everyday at about a 20 degree incline.... and I'm sweating like a pig (do monkeys sweat?).... not exactly hug-able.... put on all the gear and pack a few times a month....

 

On the DIY armor with a couple pieces of plate steel, I wouldnt for a moment argue that the real deal would be better but I could see the 'hillbilly' armor being a lot better than nothing especialy for some of the instances mentioned like guard duty or knowing you were going to confront someone on your property.

If I had the money and especialy if I already had the basic stuff taken care of then I would definatly see armor being something I would do like was mentioned, not so much to most likely wear all the time even in a SHTF situation but for high risk things like guard duty, confronting someone, driveing, etc. You would be most likely like Sniper said to be hit by pistol rounds or shotgun rounds and even if it dosent stop a round from a rifle if it let you take a hit or 2 before that rifle round finds you or saves a party member that gets it when your done with it from a pistol round or 2 then it would be well worth the cost as long as its not keeping you from stocking food, guns, ammo and other basics.

 

Another thought, the projectile doesn't always have to be a bullit to hurt or kill you.

Knew a guy in Ohio that was working the county fair as a reserve police officer. While doing crowd control, a steam powered tractor came a part with a big bang. He took a hit from a piece of the engine block right on his sternum. He happens to be a smart guy, not only was he wearing his vest, but also his trauma plate, something that some reserve police would not have even bothered to put on for that sort of duty.

The comination of the vest and the plate saved his life. The plate took the impact and I believe it broke, while the rest of the vest did what it was designed to do, spread the impact over a wider area. I'm not sure that home grown armor would do the same. He did spend time in the local burn unit, and also had a cracked rib, but he his still with us today, thanks to his armor.

There was a disscussion I read over at Lightefighter or AR15, maybe both, concerning wearing just a trauma plate carrier, with plate, vs. not wearing a full vest with plate. The general concensis was that you are asking for trouble by just wearing the plate. I imagine that home grown armor would be the same.

Just my .02,
phishi

 

Oh yeah, home grown would definatly have problems, my only thought on it is along the lines of kind of like wearing just soft armor, it will definatly not protect you from everything but if it is available and may at least protect you somewhat from something then there are times IMO that it would be a lot better than just going out in a T-shirt. If you have the funds and acess to the top end armor with trama plates then it would be the way to go, if you have funds and acess to mid range soft armor then go for it, if you dont have the funds and of acess to anything other than some scrap metal then at least in some situations I figure it would beat the hell out of a T-shirt or even a leather jacket.

 

Good replies I see and yes I was referring to the 'poor armor' as opposed to the 'no armor'. It is better to have some armor albeit poor then to have no armor. All armor is hot, heavy and cumbersome, unless you have the new armor they developed. Then it's possibly just hot and cumbersome. Maybe we can start researching that and build our own armor as I don't see it becoming a civilian market item anytime soon.

I in a way guess that I had the basic grasp of that armor about five years ago. Someone showed me a recipe that I can't remember what it was called though it worked just like they say that liquid armor works. Basically it was flour and water, I believe. You added water to the flour until you got a paste and you could stir it with a spoon rapidly though if you went slow it would bind the spoon to a stand still.

I don't know what the liquid they are using is, though I'm sure it has a higher density than flour and water. However it could be conceivable that you can create a liquid almost like that armor or in fact make that very type. Just would have to create the holder for it and make sure the water couldn't evaporate or such things.

Might be a bit kooky though I'll look into it and the possibility of making some. Going to take a minute so I will try to invest in trauma plated armor, flak vests and kevlar. Got to be careful out there when johnny no good comes to call.

 

1) No helmet is made for rifle fire....some may have stop a glancing blow....but none are rated for rifle fire....NONE!!


2) We ain't over there...we're here......so we ain't got worry about Iraqis bombing us.....or being blown up in convoys! Only people who have to listen to gov't orders travel in easily targeted convoys! Not me!


3) Soft body armor isn't rated for rifle fire either! NONE!


4) In a SHTF scenario....if you're hit anywhere outside of your vest...you're dead anyways. Any rifle hit any where on your body will do you in eventually without modern medical care and medicines which will be nonexistant in such a scenario. And it will be painful too....dying from systemic infection or blood loss!


5) Even if you're hit in the torso while wearing a vest....you still may have life threatening complications such as broken ribs/punctered lungs.....internal bleeding.....cardiac arythmias.....kidney damage/renal failure.....Most poeple hit on their vests still need follow up care in a modern medical facility...which isn't avalible in a SHTF scenario...(unless you work for the gov't! ).


6) So wear what you wish.....jut don't think armor.....or a helmet will protect as much as you think It would be wiser to learn how to shoot your rifle from a longer distance so you can decrease the likelyhood of getting shot........statistics show that the further away you are from a threat....the less likely they will score a hit on you.......this even goes for gov't troops who usually suck when it comes to shooting!! Most gov't troops can't hit anything beyond 100 meters.....especially with the M-4 carbine or AK -47 being commonly issued weapon these a days

 

I dont think anyone issuggesting straping on any type of armor and just letting anyone use them for target practice. The idea behind it is simply that the extreame majority of folks are trained to shoot for center of mass or at least for the chest, if they score a hit on you in the chest or center of mass and you have no armor on then it is pretty well a guarantee you will be dead but if you have armor on and it happens to be armor that will deal with the round that hits you then you stand a real good chance of surviving it.

As far as learning to shoot at longer ranges, to think that this would be a real solution in most situations would be rather misguided. The bad guys aint generaly gonna come blowing trumpets from a mile or 2 down the road, they are gonna come as silently as possible and not carrying a sign that says they are comeing to attack you. Most likely even if you see them comeing you wont know if they are friend or foe untill they are WELL inside 100 yards. So unless you are just going to shoot every man, woman and child that happens within a quarter mile of you then the same rules that apply now would likely apply in a SHTF situation as far as that a vast majority of shooting are inside 10 yards and nearly all are inside 50 yards. Even if you are trying to keep everyone several hundred yards away if they do intend to attack you darkness makes it pretty hard to see anyone smart enouph to not carry a light from all that far away and they likely already know you are there before you know they are comeing.

 

If we changed the language to middle-English and mentioned arrows, swords, and lances instead of bullets and bombs, exactly how long do you think this same conversation has been going on? Pull up your visors guys (origin of the salute) and look what's laying around the castle. Kevlar and ballistic ceramics don't look so heavy when compared to what we used to stop a mace or broad sword.

 

Not so fast my friend. There have been plenty of people throughout the ages that have been hit and survived without the best of modern medicine. There are lots of cases where people have taken rifles hits and survived without immediate medical care. Plus I don't see modern medicine being nonexistent in a SHTF scenario. I have about 20 bottles of peroxide and/or alcohol, and always have some with me. Not to mention left over prescription meds for the treatment of infections. I understand what you are trying to say, but there will always be some that are prepared to the extent that they can treat minor flesh wounds.

 

1) No helmet is made for rifle fire....some may have stop a glancing blow....but none are rated for rifle fire....NONE!! I didn't say they were rated, just that I have done ballistic testing and they will stop rifle fire. Again, If you are shot in the helmet and it kills you, then you will be even deadererer without it.

2) We ain't over there...we're here......so we ain't got worry about Iraqis bombing us.....or being blown up in convoys! Only people who have to listen to gov't orders travel in easily targeted convoys! Not me! Don't discount that in a SHTF scenario, if you are bugging out that everyone will stay civil and not take pot shots at you to get what you have and they don't. Still see armor and a helmet as a viable option here.

3) Soft body armor isn't rated for rifle fire either! NONE! Again, didn't say it was, but am saying that it can. Had I backed up another 50 yards when I shot that vest with the AK, can guarantee you it would have stopped it.

4) In a SHTF scenario....if you're hit anywhere outside of your vest...you're dead anyways. Any rifle hit any where on your body will do you in eventually without modern medical care and medicines which will be nonexistant in such a scenario. And it will be painful too....dying from systemic infection or blood loss! Again, I disagree with you. You are completely discounting history. The reason we call them WIA is because they didn't die and from the Civil War on back, many people lived after being shot and not having medical help. There is a picture of a guy in our museum at home with a .45 Colt sized hole in his skull that healed and he survived, so don't discount everyone that is shot out of the game.

5) Even if you're hit in the torso while wearing a vest....you still may have life threatening complications such as broken ribs/punctered lungs.....internal bleeding.....cardiac arythmias.....kidney damage/renal failure.....Most poeple hit on their vests still need follow up care in a modern medical facility...which isn't avalible in a SHTF scenario...(unless you work for the gov't! ). You may be hurt, even really bad, but that doesn't count you out of the game. How about the soldier shot by the sniper in Iraq that was dropped, got up, and deployed to cover. I'm sure he would disagree with you. You are correct in that you can suffer internal injuries, but you would have received an even more massive external injury without the armor.


6) So wear what you wish.....jut don't think armor.....or a helmet will protect as much as you think I obviously think it will do more for you than you do! I've seen the results where it has. It would be wiser to learn how to shoot your rifle from a longer distance so you can decrease the likelyhood of getting shot........statistics show that the further away you are from a threat.... I agree, but you don't always get to set the field of battle and have to be ready for all possibilities. the less likely they will score a hit on you.......this even goes for gov't troops who usually suck when it comes to shooting!! Most gov't troops can't hit anything beyond 100 meters.....especially with the M-4 carbine I have spent the better part of the last five months watching my "govt troops" and would say that you are a fool if you think they can't hit you out past 100 yards. I scored 39/40 with a M4 with iron sights and missed the 75 yard target because I had a mis-feed. or AK -47 being commonly issued weapon these a days I don't know where you get your information on this point. Not one single American Soldier is allowed to carry a AK-47 as his primary weapon outside the SOF community. What you are seeing, if you are talking about Iraq is Iraqi police and military as they are wearing our uniforms, to include the ACH's now. They carry AK-47's, not U.S. troops.
<!-- / message -->