Peak Oil- what it is and how it will impact your life

Discussion in 'Peak Oil' started by Minuteman, Aug 4, 2005.


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  1. Minuteman

    Minuteman Chaplain Moderator Founding Member

    I was surprised reading over all of the pages of this thread at just how many times I have said "Peak oil is not about running out of oil, it is about running out of cheap oil." I think that is what most people focus on is the most dire of the predictions for a time when there is no readily available oil. That scenario may be in 20-30 years or it may not be in 100. But the ramifications of a tightening supply will we will certainly see, and are seeing. It's like the post from 2006 where I commented on the newscasts crowing about the recent drop in oil prices and gasoline prices. Yay!! It is down to $65 a barrel and gas is only $2.65. When just two years before they were bemoaning the fact that oil had hit the all time high of $40 a barrel and gasoline was nearly $2 a gallon! People get used to anything and this years dire news will be next years good news. Crazy.
    The only prediction I myself made that I could find was in a post from Summer 2007;
    "I expect to see $100-$150 a barrel oil early in 2008 and $4-$6 a gallon gas by summer. If I were a betting man I would wager any amount that we will be seeing fuel rationing before the end of this decade."

    In July 2008 oil hit it's all time high of $145 a barrel and the national average for gasoline was right at $4 a gallon. I'd say two out of three isn't bad. As for the rationing, well if the trend had of held I think it too would have come to pass. Fortunately, or unfortunately, the coinciding world economic downturn forced a drastic scale back on consumption that gave us some breathing room to increase supply and to allow the Bakken and other tight shale plays to start coming on line.

    As for world peak, as stated peak oil can only be confirmed in the rear view mirror. With the increased production rates in the US and a few other countries due to enhanced extraction methods, world production, which had been flat for years and only frenzied drilling of new wells was keeping it from starting to decline, rose slightly to 87 million barrels per day. A point where it has stayed for the last 3 years and looks to remain at that level in 2014 also.
    This may well be our all time "peak" of production.

    Will we see rolling blackouts, food scarcity, fuel rationing, TEOTWAWKI? Maybe down the line, some years from now. But for sure we are going to see rising fuel prices, rising food costs, and possibly resource wars. (I'm still searching for the oil connection tied to this Russia/Crimea thing) And just as we have gotten used to $100 a barrel oil as "Normal", I'm sure we will soon see much higher prices than that as normal. Until it gets to the point where people cannot afford to put gas in their cars will most people even think about the the ramifications. And then of course they will blame it all on those evil, greedy oil barons or the shadowy "they" behind the NWO . Because everyone knows that the earth has a creamy nougat center of oil that replenishes itself and that there is plenty of oil in "them thar hills" if TPTB would just go and get it. We could all go back to $1 a gallon gas and driving our Hummers and SUV's to the market to buy 50 cent a gallon milk. And wave to Mrs. Cleaver on the way.

    As in all things, prepare for the worst, pray for the best.
     
    Last edited: Mar 5, 2014
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  2. Minuteman

    Minuteman Chaplain Moderator Founding Member

    By the way, thanks Micro for commenting on this thread and giving me the chance to re-read it and update it. I'm glad to see that it is still getting traction. And welcome to the board!
     
  3. Minuteman

    Minuteman Chaplain Moderator Founding Member

    I was reading over the latest posts I made above and one thing has struck me. This quote from the recent article about the costs of this new boom.
    "While the boom could survive a brief dip in oil prices, a long slump could slow drilling and cause production to fall swiftly, Maugeri said."

    And this about the resultant spike in oil prices after the Katrina disaster.
    "As the experience inflicted by Hurricane Katrina merely hints, there is no margin in today's energy markets. Disruption of markets, shortages and steep price increases require only for demand to slightly exceed supply."

    That got me to thinking. How will reaching the peak of world oil production differ from reaching the peak of US production in 1970?

    The key is the above statement. There is simply no room in today's markets for any disruption or decline. I commented on this in the pages of this thread. When a regional conflict in a minor oil producing country can send world prices shooting up (something that wouldn't even make a dent 20 years ago) that is evidence that we are producing at maximum capacity. There is no one, no country, no field that can offset any lost production, no matter how small.

    That is the difference in our world today. In the 1970's as US domestic production peaked and started it's decline, world production was on the rise. Other countries, particularly in the Middle East were on a meteoric rise that offset any losses we were seeing domestically. It became cheaper to import foreign oil than to produce our own dwindling supplies.
    But this time there is nowhere to import from. We are already producing our dwindling supply, all over the world, at a breakneck pace. Like I said in another post "we have found better ways to scrape the bottom of the barrel". This recent uptick in production is a blip on the radar. It is not our salvation and the end of the peak oil problem. We are still scraping the bottom of the barrel.

    This wild eyed media hype has to be seen in proper perspective. "Wow, we will soon surpass Saudi Arabia in production!!" Yay, look at us!! Sounds like great news right? Well, let's look at this a moment. All of the largest oil fields in the world are in severe decline and have been for several years. Saudi admitted to an 8% per annual decline a few years ago. So they are on a downward slope and sometime in the future we might actually meet them on their way down. Umm, that's not a good sign. That means that at some point in the future the world supply will be so bad, so low, that US production will equal or exceed Saudi production. That my friends is not news to celebrate.

    And that is IF we can maintain these new production rates, and IF the price of oil stays high, and IF there is not another financial crises that puts a squeeze on consumption rates again. You get the picture.

    So I see this current level of production as a long flat line at the top of the curve. Much more pronounced than those of earlier fields that peaked. And Hubberts model was only about localized fields. He never applied it to world oil, that was done by others after his model successfully predicted the peak of many domestic fields. But in those fields there was not the frenetic drilling pace that we see in todays world. The cost of oil prevented this mega scale drilling activity. The loss of production was simply offset by imports from other places. That is our predicament today. We have no other places to turn to now. So we are seeing the higher cost of oil holding and that cost enabling companies to afford to explore and utilize technologies and methods, and to drill areas and zones that have been cost prohibitive for decades.

    My fear, and I will make a prediction here, is that what this is doing and what we will see is not the gradual cresting the peak and a slow decline on the other side. I am afraid that this time it will be a long plateau, sustained by this frenzied rush to get all we can, followed by a drastic and sharp fall off that we have never seen in any field before.
    I think the downside is going to be sudden, swift and drastic when it comes.

    I'll come back and read this in a few years and see if this is an accurate forecast or not. That is if I can afford the electricity to run my laptop, and if I am not too busy foraging and hunting for food to afford the time.
     
    Last edited: Mar 5, 2014
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  4. Micro Farad

    Micro Farad Monkey

    I get that a slump in oil prices would cause supply to drop of dramatically, but why would we expect any slump at all? As these resources get rarer, and our demand continues, won't the oil price just go up and up and up?
     
  5. Minuteman

    Minuteman Chaplain Moderator Founding Member

    Yes, yes and yes. Peak oil is about oil getting more scarce and therefor more expensive. To a point where only the elite can afford it. Most of the more dire peak oil predictions foresee a time, when who can say, but a time when only the richest people can afford luxuries like air travel and even leisure driving.

    But the slump they are referring too is if consumption goes down (this happened in 2008 when the cost of oil and gasoline plus the worldwide recession casued many people to scale back on their usage). Other factors can affect consumption also. The only other way to reduce oil prices is oversupply, but I don't think we need worry about that. I think if we reach the point where it gets too expensive to use is the only way we will ever see prices fall and if prices fall then we cannot sustain the current level of production. It is a catch 22. The higher the price the more we produce, but the more we produce the lower the price becomes. I think the only reason we are not seeing $5 a gallon gas right now is this latest surge in production that is offsetting somewhat, or forestalling, a restriction on world supplies.
     
    Last edited: Mar 5, 2014
  6. Micro Farad

    Micro Farad Monkey

    Air travel could definitely suffer that fate but I think predicting the same of cars isn't so tenable. I wouldn't be surprised to see fewer cars in the future; nor would I be that upset about it. However, people are ingenious and we have lots of energy sources other than fossil fuels, particularly the sun. In the long term, I think we will develop these technologies to a great degree and live relatively within our means. We already have the technology (but not the infrastructure) to make every product we use today using renewable materials (but likely at a much higher cost). What concerns me more, given that people are clever and will generally figure out a way to make progress, is the middle bit, between now and then.
     
  7. Collapsenik

    Collapsenik On Hiatus Banned

    Whatever it is, it has happened multiple times now. It would seem that any prediction of peak oil should also answer the question why it didn't work out all the OTHER times, that folks might learn.

    Actually, most "new" oil comes from old places. The USGS is one of the few organizations that study these types of things. If you compare new expected discoveries to new oil in old places, the numbers are approximately the same size. One of them being much more certain than the other of course.

    USGS Release: USGS Releases Global Oil & Gas Reserve Growth Estimates (6/18/2012 11:42:10 AM)

    No upswing is sustainable, and "sustainable" itself is a function of timeframe. And the 2005 plateau, mistaken by the likes of TOD as a peak (and called by them such in 2008) turned into yet more oil production.

    Funny how that happened, yet no one seems to notice that the same thing happened to Colin Campbell's prediction for peak in about 1989...and yet the same rinse and recycle springs into existence over and over.

    What peak oil crisis? Hubbert predicted that oil rates would go DOWN, not that prices would increase. His estimate of 12 billion barrels a year turned into a reality of 30+, oil "terminal decline" per the peak oil definition has reversed by perhaps 3 million barrels a day in less than a decade and if you want a job, just go to North Dakota and see what the effects of an extraction industry look like to folks wanting a better life than what working at McDonalds might provide.

    Not Hubert's. Bell shaped curves modeled on logistic functions have a finite peak, they do not have flat tops. Plateau's were invented AFTER peak oil (peak followed by decline) turned into a flop, and it became necessary to recast a plateau as the peak.....until it turns out that production went up yet again post-2009.

    You are basically describing a cost/supply curve. The IEA put one together back in 2008 for the commodities we can manufacture gasoline, diesel and jet fuel from and as you mentioned, it could possibly go 200 years, depending on what demand scenario you wish to employ.

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 17, 2014
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  8. Collapsenik

    Collapsenik On Hiatus Banned

    Global peak oil happened in 1979 or so, did it bother you much while growing up? Took about 15 years to recover back to prior levels and needed the invention of the SUV to do it. The Secretary of Interior was worried about running out of oil in 1943, Hubbert predicted peak oil in the US in 1950....in 1938...and during state mandated assessments of oil and gas potential in the late 19th century folks were claiming it would run out within a generation..this in 1886.

    The problem is the shifting within the McKelvey diagram, and people not able to perceive that as we move deeper in the resource pyramid things...they change.

    [​IMG]



    Second year in college means you already lived through the post peak era of 1979. And through the end of cheap oil, circa 1973 or so. Certainly when the REAL peak oil comes along it will involve something people hate...change...but change is not required to be a bad thing. When GM began manufacturing personal peak oil solutions a few years back, it was one of those, "from such small beginnings.." things.

    [​IMG]

    That is EXACTLY what reserve reports published in consulting firms said in 1981 and 1982 as well.

    And then came 1986.

    Learn from history, or be forced to repeat it.

    The ensuing lull nearly stopped the graduation of petroleum engineers in the US for 15+ years, as though the cycles of industry in the past had been forgotten. I would recommend not forgetting them now, it isn't as though Malthusian hopes and dreams have worked out that well at all during the past 2 centuries
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 17, 2014
  9. Micro Farad

    Micro Farad Monkey

    After my first two posts, I had some time to think about what I had read. Collapsenik, you speak as if you believe we may continue to use oil, as demand dictates, for some time to come, and that the plateau we see is a leveling off of demand due to global economics. This very well may be true in part, but I cannot see us indefinitely consuming oil. Sooner or later, in my life time for certain, oil will become scarce enough to where our economy will suffer due to lack of supply; that is unless we develop alternative energy sources. Now if you accept that, and I would like to know whether you do or not, then this argument comes down to what the peak looks like, when it is/was/will be, and how it has impacted/is impacting/will impact the globe. You are bringing some measure of sanity to a conversation which I realized, some days after originally joining, might be fueled by undue pessimism. I can say one thing for sure, and it is that nothing is certain. What I think Minuteman advocates for is a policy of caution. Let us be ready should the worst come to pass. What you have just said, on the other hand, points at logical fallacies, particularly shifting of the argument, in the premise of peak oil. In my ideal world, we would develop alternative energy sources (solar, wind, uranium and thorium nuclear, geothermal) and deploy them sensibly, where they are cost effective and useful. We would stop burning fossil fuels, ending geopolitical conflicts, mitigating climate change, and giving us cleaner air, as well as protecting us against the eventual depletion of fossil fuel resources. In reality, we need time to do this, and I'm not sure whether we will be too late because the time scale on peak oil production is very unclear. The very model itself is unproven. We're going to run out, but when, and what will it look like?

    EDIT: That last is a rhetorical question.
     
  10. co9mil

    co9mil Monkey

  11. Collapsenik

    Collapsenik On Hiatus Banned

    Sure we'll continue to use oil, it is convenient, cheaper than building consumer products from other even more plentiful chemical feedstocks like natural gas. The plateau starting around 2005 and since eclipsed by yet higher production rates is much more reasonable of a reaction than the post 1979 global oil production decline, in a China buying cars like gangbusters world.

    Neither peak oilers or their detractors claim that oil can be consumed indefinitely, that just isn't possible in a finite system. But it makes a good strawman to battle I suppose. And the economy has already suffered from lack of supply, the great gasoline shortage and price spikes of about 1916/1917 were quite fierce, and when we had a real energy crisis involving rationing and such it certainly helped make the economic stagflation and higher prices of the 70's just that much more miserable., as those of us who lived through it in the 70's can attest.

    And I don't know if you have driven through western Kansas lately, but if you haven't, get it whirl, and appreciate the alternatives springing up as far as the eye can see.

    I figure any other peak oils will look like past ones. Predicting them are a bit of a bore, does it really matter when the next arrives? Seems like it is more important how many MORE of them there might be?

    Why do we, any of us, need peak oil to "be ready"? For whatever? I've often wondered, if folks want to be Amish, or build a bunker, or horde guns and ammo and gold, it doesn't require a resource scarcity excuse or rationalization, just go DO it. I'm all for the Boy Scout motto, and am confused it requires such a build up. Beyond some folks wanting to make money pimping fear of a thing (anything really) to sell books or website subscriptions.

    Sure. Which is why I've got solar panels on the garage roof and an EV in the garage. "We would" implies that when it comes to alternatives, we AREN'T. When in fact we already are. Personal peak oil solutions now sold to American consumers by Toyota, Ford, Chevy, Nissan and others.

    Well, based on current consumption rates, available chemical feedstock and whatnot, during your lifetime you'll certainly be using liquid fuels derived from oil production, maybe not as much as the American consumer of the 1960's before America began to get very efficient per barrel consumed, but changes will be more a matter of cost I imagine, rather than availability.
     
  12. Collapsenik

    Collapsenik On Hiatus Banned

    "New" discoveries in old fields mostly. Reserves appreciation, field growth, some common names. Occasional new discoveries, but the USGS some time ago said that field appreciation is as important as new discoveries, perhaps even more so based on their last global assessments.

    Peak oil has always had a true believer component that has made me a little skittish about the zealotry involved, but that might be because I learned about it from those who had something to sell early, and it took me awhile to do the background work to realize the game being played.
     
  13. Micro Farad

    Micro Farad Monkey

    Abiotic oil is a ridiculous hypothesis based on no factual evidence and it just another whacky free energy theory that exists because people want it to be true.

    Synthetic gas and oil are totally possible, but this in itself is not an energy source. To make synthetic oil or gas you need some other form of energy, such as coal or biomass. That doesn't really solve the energy crisis.
     
  14. Micro Farad

    Micro Farad Monkey

    Collapsenik, I didn't mean to make a straw man argument; I apologize for that.
     
  15. Collapsenik

    Collapsenik On Hiatus Banned

    Oil and gas aren't energy sources, they are the fecal matter of the planet, the scum left in the bottom of a fry pan after you leave it on the stove too long. Energy sources are really just the sun and radioactive decay.

    What energy crisis? The one in the 70's? The one peak oil was supposed to cause when Campbell said it was happening in 1989? The one The Oil Drum said happened in 2008? The gasoline scare of 1916? You aren't confusing "crisis" (such as the gasoline rationing in Pennsylvania some of us lived through in the 70's) with PRICE are you?

    Price is a combination of two things, supply and demand. Peak oilists are always discussing supply. Unfortunate for them, because the answer is contained within two variables, not one. Cut supply in half tomorrow...cut demand by 60% tomorrow, price would probably go down! OMG!!! Lower supply....and lower price! Not possible! No, the solution set just isn't constrained to the variable you are INTERESTED in (some peak oilers have an inordinate fascination with the oil and gas industry), but there is this other one in there as well.

    And mentioning that just using less, things as simple as behavioral change, mitigates against the horrors thrown about only related to supply, really doesn't fit the fear meme very well.
     
  16. Micro Farad

    Micro Farad Monkey

    The middle class in many countries is growing. Our population is growing. We're running out of conventional (and easy to extract) oil reserves. There's definitely an energy crisis; I'm just not sure about it's scale or the timeline. These are not unreasonable assertions. Do you actually disagree with any of them?
     
  17. Gator 45/70

    Gator 45/70 Monkey+++

    Oh Well, I'll throw this out there and others can put it under the microscope.
    Our geologist now are leaning to the theory that there are rivers of oil that flow around the globe and is actually fueling part of our heated core.
    I know for a fact we have fields that ''refill'' from the bedrock and are know in the patch as fields that refuse to die.
    Eugene Island 330 comes to mind and Ship Shoal 208/209
    I've seen the 4-D on Ship Shoal, A salt dome has pushed the bedrock up at about 7000 ft.
    The oil flow's in everyday and refill's the zone.
    Some days the production is up, The next day it's down, We see a pattern here with flow rate's.
     
  18. Minuteman

    Minuteman Chaplain Moderator Founding Member

    Wow. Take some time off and this thread explodes. Where to start? Let's start with the simple one first. Abiotic oil. Just as surely as death and taxes there is nothing more certain than someone chiming in on any internet discussion of peak oil with the abiotic oil theory. This has long been debunked, it is based on junk science and has been completely discredited. There has never in the history of the world been an oilfield that miraculously replenished itself. (with new oil). I think it was Ghrit that posted in this thread a very astute observation that even if it was a true phenomena, that it would take such a long period of time, thousands of years at least, to replenish the most minute fraction of what we extract that for that alone it can't even be considered in intelligent discussions on the subject. I'm paraphrasing from memory but I think that was the gist of the post.

    And as for the phenomena of wells that replenish themselves given time, yes there are verified cases of that happening, but, there is always a BUT. But it is not new oil. It is oil from a deeper reservoir that migrates upwards into depleted areas. A lot of confusion arises from people not understanding the workings of oil extraction. Most people think of oil as vast lakes or rivers under ground that you stick a straw into and suck out the oil. When in actuality it is more like sticking a straw into a sponge. You can suck all the fluid around the bottom of the straw and if you wait for some time the remaining fluid will slowly soak into the area you have vacated.

    One very good example of this is the Cat Canyon field in central California. They had been drilling wells there since the 1920's. They were around 3,000 to 7,000' deep and were good producers for a long time. eventually production started to taper off and many wells were shut in. After several years they went back into these old wells and found that they could resume production at nearly the same rate as before. The geologists started studying this phenomena and determined that the oil was seeping up from a much deeper reservoir. I drilled the first wildcat well in that field that went below 10,000'. At 12,000' we encountered a pressurized zone that nearly blew us off the well. Then the rush was on and the oil companies drilled many wells at that depth and were producing far more than the earlier shallower wells had. When I left there in the mid eighties seismic data was indicating that the main reservoir was even deeper at around 18,000'.

    So these wells that replenish themselves are simply wells where the oil is in a deeper, pressurized formation that seeps into the area that is voided by producing the oil out of it. Think of it like a muddy river bank. You can hollow out a depression and it will fill with water. Bail out the water and wait and it will slowly refill.

    As for rivers of oil, that too is a misunderstanding of geology. There are no underground rivers. Oil is saturated in the formation. The pressurization of this oil deposit many times causes weaker formations above it, such as salt layers to rise and create "domes". In the early days of the oil industry this was a key indicator that geologists were looking for to determine where to drill. The two primary formations that oil is found in are sand and shale. Most of the last 150 years of oil drilling has been in the sand formations where the wells are easily drilled and the oil easy to extract. It has only been in fairly recent years that the harder to drill and harder to extract shale formations have been developed and produced. And the hard shale formations are where the current uptick in production is primarily coming from.

    The advent of improved fracking technology and better drilling methods and equipment has allowed us to exploit these reserves. The use of directional drilling technology and improvement in bit design has allowed us to drill lateral wells into these hard shale formations for thousands of feet instead of the normal dozens of feet that we could drill with vertical wells. And the high cost of oil is allowing us to utilize these expensive methods that were cost prohibitive before. That coupled with the enhanced recovery we are achieving with hydraulic fracturing is spurring the recent drilling frenzy and resultant increase in production rates.

    The one poster above stated "If we're running out of oil why are there more known reserves than ever before?"
    That too is a misconception. There have been no new giant discoveries of unknown reservoirs. We have always known there were oil deposits in the Bakken, the Marcellus, the Eagleford formations. But as I said they were unaccessible and or cost prohibitive to drill and produce. The rise in an oil companies "proven reserves" is a numbers game. It is used to fuel their stock prices and encourage investors. "proven reserves" are what is estimated to be in the ground, and that is wildy speculative and quite different from "recoverable reserves". Look at OPEC in the 80's. They imposed production quota's on their members that was based on their "Proven reserves". Suddenly overnight the proven reserves of most OPEC members increased and even doubled. Not many countries allow an independent review of the data that they use to determine these "proven reserves" so any numbers, especially from third world countries is taken with a grain of salt.
     
  19. Minuteman

    Minuteman Chaplain Moderator Founding Member

    Now on to the harder one. Collapsenik, you seem to have an agenda, all of your posts but one on here are in this thread. You post quite a bit of information but very few facts. I tried to understand your points and your arguments but, quite frankly it is too disjointed and contradictory to follow. I believe that you are trying to say that peak oil is somehow a myth or an incorrect theory. In one post you seem to be agreeing that oil is depleting and is a non renewable, finite resource, but then you say that peak oil has occurred many times. I will multi-quote your posts and see if I can go through them one at a time.


    Wow. Ok I have a headache now. Like I said it is very hard to follow your reasoning. If you simply are a proponent for "green" energy and a sustainable energy guru, with solar panels on the roof and an electric vehicle in the garage, then hey, good for you. I support all of that, but it has absolutely nothing to do with the fact that world oil production is declining, and that prices are rising and will continue to rise and that we have a problem that must be addressed. And no amount of wishful thinking, fantasy based theories, or head in the sand denying will change that.
     
    Last edited: Mar 26, 2014
  20. Micro Farad

    Micro Farad Monkey

    I like having strong opinions, but I find myself in the uncomfortable position right now of changing them a lot! I am sure peak oil is real, I just keep going back and forth on whether it means we just tighten our belts or if it's the end of civilization as we know it. This seems like an awfully big deal to be so controversial and downright murky of an issue. Are we on the plateau? Not yet there? How long until the decline? How steep will the decline be? How much will the decline hurt us and how? Are we even going to see this model play out as predicted? And how is it that I'm really not able to sift good evidence from bad? Maybe I should stick to electrical engineering and math; I am much, much better at that. Still, I think I'm learning from this conversation, even if I am making a complete fool of myself in the process. I'd like to know, Minuteman, what you postulate the world will be like in five years.
     
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