Gas or Diesel?

Oil can be pumped by the very fuel it is moving, why not with propane? Why not have a propane driven pump to pump propane?

 

You could.

About 20 years ago I was working with an air compressor company (think trailer versions for jack hammers) interested in some electronic controls for a compressor for natural gas. They were looking to take a Ford V8 engine and use one side running as a 4 cylinder engine to drive the other side as a compressor. They had a special head, valves and pistons to make the conversion. Common practice during WW II with the old flat head 4 cylinder Jeep engines; 2 cylinders powering it and two pumping air. Their idea was to connect this to a city gas line at re-fueling stations to compress the natural gas upto about 3000 psi to refill tanks on buses and trash trucks.

AT

 

So, with that in mind, and a bit of planning. you could reasonably use a large propane holding tank like that, without onsite power to pumps.

 

So, You think a pretty good pressure washer pump will suffice, Like one with a Cat tri-plex pump as an example ?

 

I have no idea on that.

 

I would think a purpose made pump designed for moving an explosive fluid would be best (spark free) but it could be made to move by any kind of motor, so why not make that motor run on propane? One of those propane burning trucks could be the pumping unit. That would make the pump mobile as well.

 

And, actually, Miller Airpack welders are made with 3 cylinders of a 4-cylinder diesel engine being run to power the welder, and the 4th cylinder operating as an on-board air compressor, if memory serves. Since an air compressor cylinder and a reciprocating pump work on generally the same principle, there's no reason to believe it couldn't work.

However, depending on the amount of horsepower required for the propane pump, and the amount of time needed for it to run, there's no reason why a simple DC motor pump, running off of batteries topped off by solar, couldn't work just as well. Where I live, in northern TX, we don't have the short winter days that folks further north have, but they're still shorter than in summertime, and the town where I live runs all their school crosswalk signs, and other low-demand sources, off of solar-powered battery systems. While you might need more power for a small propane pump, which would mean more demand from a deep cycle battery, you would also need it less often, I'd guess, meaning more time for the solar panel(s) to recharge the battery.

Might be worth crunching the numbers on, IMHO.

 

Something like this, Wet suction reed/plate style suction and discharge valve's.

 

You know, I had one of those "oh, you dumb ass, you weren't thinking" moments laying in bed last night. One can fill smaller propane tanks from a big tank without a pump. Pretty easy, at least when it is not real cold outside.

The key is that propane is stored as a liquid under pressure in a tank. That pressure is directly related to the temperature of the tank and liquid inside. To move the propane from one tank to the other, all we need is a pressure differential between the tanks. One can do that by either cooling one tank, heating the other tank or both.

The chart below shows the gauge presssure (PSIG) that the tank will have for a given temperature (deg F). How much propane is inside the tank does not matter, as long as it is not virtually empty. If some gas is drawn off which would tend to lower the pressure inside, then some of the liquid almost immediately evaporates inside to bring the pressure right back up. The evaporation process requires heat and this will lower the tank temperature a bit (why your grill tank can get condensation or even frost on the outside it you are burning lots of gas cooking for a big party). But ambient conditions will eventually bring the temp and hence pressure right back up.

Temp Pressure
130 ... 257
110 ... 197
100 ... 172
90 ... 149
80 ... 128
60 ... 92
30 ... 51
0 ... 24
-20 ... 11
-44 ... 0 Propane boils at this temperature at sea level pressure

So, if the large tank is at 80 deg F and we can keep the small tank at 60 deg F, we will have a 36 PSI pressure difference between the two and can move propane from the big tank to the small one.

It might take half an hour or more but it can be done. This is because it will be moving from a liquid to vapor, travelling through the hose and then going back to a liquid. As noted above, this process will cool the supplying tank and similarly it will warm the receiving tank as the condensing process releases heat and will warm the tank. So, there is a process that effectively tends to try and make the tank temperatures equalize. You'll need to continue to chill the receiving tank and maybe warm the supply tank.

To cool the receiving tanks we could run water over it or pack ice around it. If the sun is shining you could wrap black plastic over the big tank to help warm it up but I'd keep a close eye on its temp to be sure it doesn't get too much pressure in it. I don't think I'd build a fire near the supply tank. ;-)

You'll need a hose or copper tubing with appropriate fittings at each end for the connection. Be sure that it can handle a min of 300 PSIG.

You'll also want a screw driver and fish scale or good quality bath scale to watch how much propane has gone into the small tank. There is a screw on the side of the valve body and when that is cracked open only vapor should come out. If liquid vents out, the tank is over filled. Portable tanks also have their tare weight (empty weight) stamped on the handle. Take the total weight of the tank, subtract the tare weight and that will be the weight of the propane inside. Note this also is a good method to tell how close to empty a tank is because pressure is NOT representative of that for any substance that transistions between gas and liquid inside the tank.

Hope that helps a bit. Could be very helpful and you can probably fill your gas grill tanks cheaper than taking them to be re-filled or swapped out. Have fun and be careful.

AT

 

It is actually easier than that. I fill one pound tanks from 20lbs tanks every time I go hunting. I hang the bulk tank inverted, with a store bought adapter in the valve, then screw on a bottle. Crack open the main valve, and the bottle will fill as pressure pushes liquid propane into the one pounder. You will not get a complete fill, but you will get 7-8/10 of a fill, and you can check that with a bow scale or a large fish scale. No heating or cooling required. Adapters are available at any camping store. I got mine a Galyuns, before Dick's took them over.

 

I have a couple of those in a tool box. I was thinking, maybe incorrectly, that it might be kind of challenging to turn a 500 or 1000 gallon tank upside down to flow liquid into a 20 or 40 pound tank... but then I don't work-out like Melbo either.

AT

And ruined a good thing!

 

That's why, in the world of liquid fuels (which I worked in for ~17 years), we used air driven pumps & ventilation fans. You can keep your air compressor far enough away (and upwind), and run an air hose to your tank/pit/wherever the vapors are, and not have to worry about sparks. Plus they're cheaper, and easier to maintain, than explosion-proof electrical items!

 

I found this tread while looking for an answer to a problem my friend is having with his tractor fuel. Specifically he uses diesel fuel and buys in quantity for running his multiple tractors and other equipment on his ranch. The problem is that this low sulfur diesel is starting to get 'algae' before hay season is done causing him to loose or treat the fuel before he can use for winter feeding.

He believes that the sulfur level is the problem and until recently has been treating his fuel with 2 cycle oil to add the sulfur back in so the heat of summer doesn't cause it to grow the 'algae'.

Lately he is having trouble finding 2 cycle oil with sulfur. What are some affordable options to stabilize and extend the life of his fuel wile leaving it accessible for uses on a steady basis?

 

I use a BG fuel additive bought on 1 or 5 USG containers , pricey but works , I bought mine wwwway back seeing the BS coming

 

I've have stored gasoline, diesel and propane, The gas is stored in 55-gal drums, and the diesel is in a 100-gal tank, in an insulated but unheated barn. I have treated both with BG fuel treatment, plus an anti-algae treatment for the diesel. I rotate, replace and treat the fuel regularly, usually a drum of gas every few years and 10-15-gal of diesel through my tractor each year. The gas is for emergency use in generators (Briggs-Stratton and Onan), garden tiller, chain saws and limited use of autos. The diesel is for my John Deere tractor. I currently have a still to produce ethanol and methanol, and my future plans include a small biodiesel set-up. I'm also planning to add more gas and diesel to my stores, also another propane tank for the barn. I have also given some though to getting an old Ford 8N gas tractor, Henry Ford designed those things to run on some pretty sketchy fuels, including ethanol. I also want to get a PTO generator for my diesel tractor, thus giving me a mobile diesel generator I do need to insulate the drums of gasoline from seasonal high and low temps, and daily temp swings I was thinking on building a wooden containment around the drums and fill in with dried sand creating a thermal sink to moderate the temp. Just need the time and money to get all of this done!

 

Coal will outlast us all for storage, so far as a fuel is concerned for basic heat.
Methane gas is easily made and so long as there are organics it is a practical fuel.
Alcohol is also a simple fuel to make and store and has many applications beyond most fuels.
Another fuel source is Hydrogen made using electricity that can come from solar energy.
If one bothers to learn how to make these fuels they are much further ahead than those dependent on commercially made fuels.
If things go down as predicted it is highly unlikely that commercially made fuels will be available, no matter what you might be willing to pay/trade for it.
Vessels you store in will likely be the more critical issue seeing that steel drums rust if not cared for and plastics need to be kept out of the weather especially hot weather.
I understand the value of reciprocating engines for driving generators and air compressors and farming equipment, not everything can be run on electric motors efficiently/effectively.
Best of luck to every one.

 

True, coal is already millions of years old, and would certainly last for our lifetimes. However, it is difficult to get now days. To the best of my knowledge there is no supplier of coal within a hundred miles of here.