Gas or Diesel?

When storing fuel for an indefinite amount of time, such as for a generator in a bunker that you hope you never have to
use, there is only one choice. That would be propane since it will never go bad. All other fuels have problems with long term
storage. As for losing 10-20% of the power, who cares increase the size of the generator to make up for the loss. The most important thing to remember is whenever down the road you go to use that generator for your emergency your fuel will be
as good as the day you first bought it and your generator will run for you. No additives every year or 2, no pumping out the old fuel and changing it no maintenance at all. There will be enough other things to deal with, why have to worry about if your
fuel is good or not. I have diesel tractors and love them but for my generator in my bunker propane leaves me no fuel problems
to deal with down the road.

 

erm,
how about propane being unavailable?

 

I have my generator hooked up to a 500 gallon underground tank that gives me a very long run time. As far as being
available in my neck of the woods there are propane tanks all over the area in the country setting in pa. Almost half the people
use it for cooking, dryers, and some heat applications. My 4 hp honda generator will run at least 6-9 months on my 500 gallon
tank which gives me ample time to find more. Since most cars run on gas or diesel I feel they will be in short supply long before
the propane will.

 

Uh....maybe if you keep it in plastic 5gal cans.


I'm rotating some drums of gasoline today into my main tank on a stand, and refilling the drums with new. The gas is 90/10 gasoline/ethanol, and it went in the drums in Oct/2009 ( at $2.25gal ). It runs in my vehicles, 4 wheeler and small engines just fine. It was put up with PRI-G. And this is not the oldest I've used.


I also store quite a bit of diesel, with PRI-D.

 

TnAndy, do you notice any difference in your gas mileage, between the 2009 gas, and what you might buy today, "fresh" out of the dispenser? Not sure if you've ever done a comparison or not, but that's definitely some information that would be useful to have.

So far as water goes, I remember back when I worked at the Navy fuel depot, on Guam, and we started injecting the additives into raw JP-8 jet fuel, for the Air Force (Navy receives the fuel, via ship, and pumps through a 25 mile pipeline up to Anderson AFB). We had previously purchased blended fuel, that already had the additives in it, but the government felt it would save money by buying the additives separately, and having us inject them into the pipeline, as we pumped the fuel.

Anyways, one of the additives is called FSII (fuel system icing inhibitor), which is basically a "gas dry" additive for jet fuel......it strips any water out of the fuel. Part of the problem with storing this additive on an island, like Guam, is that our humidity levels were normally pretty high, and, much like ethanol, this additive would be ruined by the introduction of moisture into the tank. In other words, we (meaning I) had to design and build a dryer system for the (above ground) tank vent......and all I was given to work with was a cylinder that the desiccant would go into! To make a long story short, I mounted the dryer at ground level, ran a 2" pipe up to the existing tank vent penetration, then put a short vent on top of the cylinder, with a shepherd's crook of fittings on the end, to keep the rain from going into it. Once a month, we'd disconnect the cylinder (union fitting) from the vent line, pour the desiccant out into a pan, and bring fresh stuff to fill it back up with, then reconnect everything, and take the used-up desiccant back to the fuel lab, where they'd stick it in an oven for an hour or so, which would bake the moisture back out of it.

No reason why you couldn't do the same, with any storage tank with E10 gasoline in it. Heck, you wouldn't need a cylinder with the volume we had (the FSII tank was ~8,000 gallons), unless you lived in Hawaii or the Gulf coast states, and could cobble one together with a piece of pipe, a couple socket weld flanges, and some screen inside (to contain the desiccant, and keep it from going down the pipe).

 

The other point I thought of, while typing the novel that is my previous reply to this thread , is that modern diesel vehicles suffer from one big weakness......the "clean" diesel the EPA has forced upon this country! While you still might have luck running them on bio-diesel, you're going to have to be really careful with the quality, of I'm betting the computer running that diesel engine is going to put it into "cripple mode".

That's a big part of the reason why I'd like to lay my hands on one of the old CUCV diesel-powered Army trucks that are still floating around (and still, occasionally, found on govliquidation's website for auction). Good old GM diesel engines (Detroits, I think), that will, once warmed up, pretty much run on ANYTHING that's close to the quality of kerosene......jet fuel, kerosene (yeah, like the stuff you burn in a Coleman stove), bio-diesel, power steering fluid.....oh, yeah, and diesel too!

For those running older diesel engines, pay attention to where you might find a Navy or Marine Corps air station in proximity to your BOL. While you might get away with running JP-8 jet fuel, like the Air Force runs (flash point of 100 degrees), the JP-5 that the Navy/USMC runs is nothing more than extra-clean diesel fuel, with the same flash point (140 degrees). In fact, while working at the above-mentioned Navy fuel depot, we would normally dump contaminated JP-5 fuel into the diesel fuel storage tanks (so long as it didn't have too much water in it, which it normally did not), and "downgrade" the fuel to diesel. Might make for a good alternative source of fuel, if the merde really does hit the fan!

 

I have also been in this discussion on fuels before. I have posted all the info on my Generator set up and long term storage of Gasoline. I am storing 80 gallons now of Marine gas which has zero ethanol in it. It is still stabilized with marine stabil and kept in 5 gallon plastic cans underground at a constant 58 degrees. I also keep my boat tank full of the same alcohol free marine gas (30 gallons)

As for my generator it is built for running on Propane (Generac 8000 watt Guardian series). It is tied to a 500 gallon tank which holds 400 gallons and is kept full . I had a tee installed in the line so I can run 100 pound cylinders for short term power outages. This was done in 2010. We figured consumption rates by the manufacturers chart of 1 gallon of propane per hour at 50% load . Of course we wont use 50% load ever except for pump start up. It takes us less then 20 minutes to pump over 200 gallons of water into our water storage cans so we plan on running the genny once per week for about 1/2 hour for pumping water and some other power use. At that rate 500 gallons would last us near 20 years.

W e had a split distribution panel set up installed which allows us to run our 240 volt and 120 volt needs separate so as to enable us to build a much smaller solar set up to power just essential 120 needs. Once this is complete I feel we will be able to stand alone for 20 years power wise.

Things I learned along the way. Propane will outlast any fuel with zero upkeep. Battery banks have a shelf life unless they are kept dry and vacum packed. Rolls will sell batteries dry with battery acid in cans so you dont have to use them until you need them. Gasoline will store best in a cool dry place with CONSTANT TEMPS UNDER 60 DEGREES.

I have converted my 1979 Jeep to run on propane as well. This vehicle is only run a couple times per year and running on propane I have zero bad gas problems. I am going to buy a 300 gallon tank with a wet leg for keeping fuel for the Jeep. It uses a fork lift type tank that holds 10 gallons. I wish I could get a 2 stroke chain saw to run on propane but its not an option so Im storing marine gas for cutting wood. Propane is the easiest fuel to store long term hands down. I went that direction and am not sorry we did. When I add in a small solar array for our 120 volt needs I will be finished with power and will move on to more food production and defense. KF

 

I'd like to address this to you since where you live is just about as remote as most of us imagine in a SHTF scenario and if I remember right you have a small fuel business. So what do you recommend for our energy needs? I suppose those of us with year long streams could use micro-hydro or sunbelt people could use solar but for the rest of us a backup generator is about it. What are the requirements for storage, the pitfalls, good ideas, bad choices, etc.

 

My personal solution for power is not yet fully implemented, but I do have some portions of the big plan in place:

1. Fundamentally a solar system that is grid tied (to recover most of its cost over the next decade or two - this is the big ticket item still to do but I have found my panels which are actually manufactured close by and I was told by the manager will cost about $.85-.95 per watt. Saving my pennies).
2. Outback invertors (two setup in parallel for 240 volt operation) those will also switch to non-grid tie battery system if the grid goes down.
3. A small battery bank that is set up to handle a couple hours of battery backup but a much larger bank of batteries stored dry that can be filled with acid and then connected in when the day/need comes along to provide a couple days worth of power with very conservative consumption. These batteries can sit dry for decades as well with no degradation. To augment the solar...
4. A small diesel generator to feed my shop circuits for the big machine tools and welding equipment. It can also charge the battery bank if the solar system isn't getting the job done and can alternatively be configured to feed the household and shop circuits directly if the invertors (and spare) all crap out. (I have a good sized gas generator now filling this role and am on the lookout for a larger diesel replacement)
5. One spare invertor stored in EMP container to replace either of the two invertors in the 240 v system. Or if both fried (say an EMP) I can revert to a 120 volt backup system.
6. A small woodgas powered generator that can be used in place of the diesel generator should it quit or fuel be exhausted. I have a second generator for this and some of the materials for the gasifier, just need to finish this project someday.
7. 55 gallon drums with diesel that are filled, SEALED and stored wrapped in plastic (to keep condensation off the steel drum) in an outbuilding (have some drums now, just not filled yet). It will store for multiple decades this way. I can lift/move them with a drum lifting clamp and the bucket on my tractor or even a hand truck if needed.

I have gas now stored for the gennie, that ranges from a low of about 75 up to a max of 160 gallons as I cycle it through my vehicles. I buy it when the price is low and use fuel points from Kroger (buy Amazon gift cards when they are 4 points per dollar) that can get up to a dollar/gallon discount for up to 35 gallons. I figure I save about 72-73 dollars with the points when I buy fuel. I re-supply when price is low (say 3.29/gal) and then use it in vehicles when pump prices are high until I am down to about 75-80 gallons where I stop using it. Then, wait for price to drop, top off all the vehicles and equipment and go buy another hundred gallons or so. Seems to work and my gas is always less than 6 months old with no preservative and zero problems... and I seldom pay for gas during the price spikes.

Certainly not a perfect plan but I think it will work moderately well. And if it doesn't, I can probably still rig and build something that would from what I have and can scavenge. YMMV.

AT

 

I didn't see anyone mention it, but for long term situations you can make bio diesel out of soybean oil (or other crop oils) in your garage with a little alcohol and lye. All sustainable products with multiple uses and marketable byproducts.

Try making gasoline or propane.

 

I can make casing head or drip gas as some call it.

 

I'm kind of interested in jatropha Jatropha curcas - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia for a biofuel. This doesn't fit the bill for my current location (too wet), but in The Great Plains with the worsening water restrictions due to the depleting Oglalla Aquifer, it makes some sense. Crush the seeds and the oil from them can go right into a diesel engine. Use the rest of the seed for fuel in a gasifier.

 

One can make methane pretty easy. Lots of DIY digesters out there.
Biogas and How to Make a DIY Anaerobic Digester (Video) : TreeHugger
And lots of smaller gensets running on methane.

Oddly my daughter seems to take offense at the methane I produce. ;-)
AT

 

Methane is a good option for a stationary gen set, but it doesn't package very well for resale

Bio diesel is part of a sustainable system that includes products to barter, food for live stock, and an energy source.

Methane only fits one of the above categories. You need a waste stream to make the methane which is most likely live stock. The live stock need feed so you need a source for the feed most likely some type of crop. To work the fields you need fuel for your equipment......

The good news is you can easily do both bio diesel and methane.

Gasoline is a bit of a dead end. Good for the short term not so good long term.

 

What Bruce says about Propane is very true. However my plan is for no resupply. I can however get smaller tanks and there are literally millions of gas grills in Michigan. The 20 pound, 40 pound and 100 pound cylinders are my resupply through scavenging or bartering. Every gallon is another couple weeks worth of water. My plan does not call for 24/7 generator operation. Once per week for about 1/2 hour. I am building solar for long term 120 volt use. For now we have a 3000 watt gas powered Honda we use for short term outages where we dont have to pump water. That is what we need to replace now with solar. My essentials( REFRIGERATION AND FREEZER) will run on just a couple amps of 120. One 15 amp circuit or one 2500 watt inverter and enough battery bank to sustain that. No messing with diesel or gas long term for me. I cant store enough it to keep me in power for 20 years. My gasoline supply should cut a 10 year supply of fire wood if I use it only for the saws. The Jeep needs its own 300 gallons tank with a wet leg to refill the 10 gallon propane tank on it now. I can use 20 pound grill tanks to run the jeep but it only goes about 25 miles on 2 gallons of propane. I will be just using it to pull the wood trailer. So I am not counting on resupply at all. I am counting on conserving the 500 gallons I have. I am aslo like I said buying another tank just for the Jeep. KF

 

But on the other hand don't forget that a gasoline engine can be operated on woodgas with a gasifier. A saw, ax and cart is the minimum required to prepare the fuel.

Biodiesel... Plant the beans, harvest, haul, store, clean them, dry them more, crush them, mix with hexane to dissolve the bean oil, press the hexane out of the bean meal, heat the hexane to evaporate it to leave the oil behind, capture the hexane vapor to condense it and use again, refine the thick gooey bean oil, do the alcohol and lye trick to further remove the glycerin and convert to biodiesel and then burn most of that to plant, harvest, haul, store, clean, etc. And in the end hope that without the glyphosate, fertilizer, pesticide, etc. that the yields are good enough that you might have enough biodiesel left over to burn in a genset or vehicle.

I am sorry. Not trying be an a-hole though it would be easy to draw that conclusion I know. Just pointing out that biodiesel sounds easy but don't forget all the work to get to the bean oil and the energy consumed making it isn't that much less than what is derived from it. I have farmed beans and live a mile from a big bean meal processing plant owned by my wife's relatives, so I somewhat understand this side of the biodiesel equation.

Might be easier to just store a hundred 55 gal drums of diesel in a barn.

AT

 

Your plan is very similar to what I have set up.

11kw solar that produces about 40% more that we use. 5kw of it is set up grid tie only ( Enphase micro inverters ), the other 6kw is Outback/battery based ( twin inverters, 240v output ) The entire 11kw goes to the grid, because we get a good infeed rate from TVA, (12 cents OVER retail) which will help pay for the system ( as you said ). This month, for example, in addition to taking care of our bill ( about 90 bucks ), we have a $172 credit from solar infeed. They cut us a check once a year. It offsets the propane bill ( stove, water heater, BBQ grill, small wall heater for when the weather is still to warm to fire up the wood stove ),plus a healthy amount.

In grid down, the 6kw is available to power the critical parts of the house ( and if it was long term, I'm fairly sure I could re-configure the wiring of Enphase units to work with my 'mini' grid ). My battery is a 1200amp/hr AGM, 20 year rated. When I have excess funds, I plan to set aside some Rolls batteries, dry, with acid in jugs....other things are just taking priority right now.

I did just spent 5k on a complete extra set of Outback equipment, put in a Faraday cage.....two 3500w inverters, 3 charge controllers, and a HUB ( the brain that sync's the output of the inverters to give you 240v )

I store 6-55gal drums of gasoline ( don't think I'd wrap them in plastic, by the way, unless you have a way to completely seal that wrap....I keep mine in a dry, insulated shed ), and 10 drums of diesel, and a couple of K-1 kerosene. I have a 300gal gasoline tank on a stand and a 180gal diesel. (gravity feed) I use these for farm equipment and occasionally the car/truck fillup. When they get close to empty ( about once a year ), I move the oldest fuel out of the drums into the tanks, then refill the drums with fresh + PRI-G or D.

For moving/storage, I built some special drum pallets that hold one drum, and don't let it slide out to the side. If you have a tractor, get a set of pallet forks....you'll find them 10x more useful than a bucket. Everything around you place will suddenly go on a pallet ! You'll wonder in a year or two how you ever got by without them.



A gassifier generation system is one of my next projects as well. I have enough fuel around me to power me forever.


(one of my 3 cord sheds)

 

You don't need hexane or any other solvent, you can use a press to extract the oil. The yield per acre is more than enough to raise the crop, fuel your truck, sell to your neighbors, and store for the winter. A single acre of soy beans can get you 30 plus gallons of bio diesel using a press to extract the oil and you don't need to use a drop of bio diesel to make it.

I think you are underestimating value of the bio diesel in the long term. There is a whole world out there that will need a source of fuel, and you will need what they have. No community has ever survived for long in a closed system, the only way to make it long term is through trade, and trade only works if you have something somebody else wants.

Gasifiers are great, and storing diesel is a no brainer. But long term bio diesel is a marketable product as is the glycerin and alcohol.

 

I appreciate the value to trade, barter and become a supplier in a larger society. I get that completely. I am just saying it is NOT trivial to produce a significant quantity of biodiesel to do exactly as suggested.

Let's run some numbers. We get in the range of 40-50 bushels/acre in good years from the beans on our farm. I looked for some conversion to oil data and found this little gem of info:
http://www.fapri.missouri.edu/outreach/publications/2006/biofuelconversions.pdf

It shows with modern farming, oil extraction, and fuel conversion methods about 63 gal of biodiesel per acre was produced in 2012 with a yield of 42.8 bu/acre. Given that cold pressing will be less effective than hexane extraction, your number of 30 gal per acre is very reasonable for an average and likely a bit low in a good one. But let's peel this onion a bit more.

With modest use of a diesel generator for maybe 4 hours a day to recharge batteries, pump water, run refrigeration, cook or can some food and operate some other appliances, maybe 1-2 gallons consumed. Lets be generous and say one acre (30 gal) gives us 4-5 weeks of generator time. So, we'll need maybe 10 acres of beans just to fuel our own generator.

How about vehicles? Any trips to town or someplace to do the trading and barter? Every other week? Let's just assume that and how much fuel consumed per trip? 2 gallons? That would be about 50 gals a year or about 1.5-2 more acres of beans.

How much are you going to trade? Enough for one other family to run their diesel generator for a year? Two families? 5 families? Let's just say only 3. That is 30 more acres. We are up to 41-42 acres of beans.

In a total grid down scenario, we won't have access to glyphosate (Roundup) and consequently we will have trouble with no till farming methods. We'll be back to some kind of tilling or soil prep. Are you going to hoe, plant and harvest 40 acres by hand? I suppose you could farm 40 acres with horses, my grandfather did and then you need feed, pasture, etc. and that means several more acres and time.

But wait, that 30 gal per acre may go down even more if we can't obtain fertilizer or fungicide or pesticide. Precision (GPS based) farming methods have greatly reduced the chemicals needed but what will yields be with zero chemicals? Organic farmers do it all the time but use more soil prep methods (i.e. more fuel), animal fertilizers, more labor and accept lower yields. 30 gals per acre may be optimistic in a grid down. We might be 15-20 gal per acre now.

That might drive us up to 50-60 acres. You are really going to do that by hand? I really don't understand how you are going to make enough biodiesel "without burning a drop." I find it difficult to believe that you won't use a tractor. A small 30-40 HP tractor that can farm 50-60 acres is going to burn 1-2 gal per hour depending upon the operation. You are now looking at a couple hundred more gallons or 5-6 more acres. And we haven't examined where the lye and alcohol to process this much biofuel comes from.

I agree completely that re-establishing a community is critical. I agree that biodiesel could be a significant part of that. It might make great sense for a farmer with a thousand acres to devote 3-400 acres for biodiesel production as he'll need a hundred acres or more for fuel production just to farm the rest. I am not yet sold it works all that well on a few acres on a very small scale. Things with low bang for the buck are generally better done on a larger, higher efficiency basis. But I welcome some new data, information or perspective to edify me some more.

AT