I always look at guns as tools. I don't have only one wrench in my tool box. No one tool will work in all situations. A crescent wrench will fit most any nut but I would rather have a box end wrench of the proper size. The comment that "I'd rather hunt with a fighting rifle than fight with a hunting rifle" has a lot of truth to it. But if needed, the hunting rifle will work. The most important thing is not what you shoot, but how you shoot. A lever action rifle in the hands of someone who has taken the time to learn to use it. And not just a few times a year hunting or shooting paper. But really knows how to use it and hit what he is aiming at, will be far more effective than the boob spraying rounds downrange from his "assault" rifle that he only brings out a few times a year to show off to his buddies. There is no such thing as the perfect SHTF weapon. It is what you have at the time and what you know how to use. And it depends on what type of excrement is contacting what type of turbine. If you are planning on bugging in and having to defend a retreat then a large capacity semi auto would be the correct tool. Actually I would go with a belt fed heavy barreled, fight in place weapon. But the most likely scenario for many and probably a better strategy to boot (at least in short term survival situations)would be the Grizzly Adams approach. Evade contact, remain mobile, and take to the woods. For this type of SHTF the lever action would be more than adequate. I am fortunate enought to be able to have a well stocked toolbox. But those with more limited funds can still aquire a well rounded tool kit. You don't have to have the professional high end snap-on wrench set, you can mange just find with the made in China ones from Wal-Mart. I have the option to select the proper tool for whatever job is at hand, but my go to, if I only had one, crescent wrench is my FAL para. But someone with an SKS could accomplish the same job. My most immediate danger has been the explosion of wild hogs and pursuant to that the local cougar population. If I am spending time in the woods I have my Marlin 336 in .35 Rem. I would be comfortable defending myself with either one of these rifles. The only advantage other than distance, for the FAL would be the higher capacity and faster RPM. But this would only come into play with mulitple targets. In that situation, unless you have plenty of others to support your fire, then your best course of action would be to fade away. And with my Marlin I would hate to be the one trying to follow me into the brush. So again I say that it does'nt matter the rifle as much as the shooter. If your comfortable with, and trained with a lever gun then that is a perfectly suitable weapon for nearly any situation. A crescent wrench won't fit exactly every situation, but it will get the job done 99% of the time. And by the way, just personal bias, and I know the availability of ammo is not as plentiful, but I highly prefer the .35 Rem to the 30-30. I didn't know until I bought mine and started to research it that .35 Rem was the original chambering for all of Marlins early lever actions. It is a sledgehammer out to 150 yds, then a shop hammer to 200, but it drops to a ball peen after that. Shooters wanted a longer range and flatter shooting round and the 30-30 became much more popular. Marlin reluctantly began producing their levers in that caliber. Just like the <ACRONYM title=AR-15>AR </ACRONYM>platform was originally designed for the .308 then forced to downsize to the weaker .223. With the .35 Rem, just like the .45 in a pistol round, if you hit it, it's going down. You don't spend time tracking blood trails.<!-- google_ad_section_end -->
One thing I should have mentioned but forgot is the SKS. Using stipper clips, it is better than a .30-30 for the reload, and a bit flatter shooting. Unlike the Garand, the clips are relatively easy to keep after use, and recherge again. The clips aren't required for opeation either, though it does slow down the reloads a bit. An SKS can be had for the price of a used .30-30, and the ammo is readily available. There is even a picitinny rail that can be added to the gas tube so a EER or other scope can be added. jim
I love my SKS and if I had to choose between either my 30-30 or my SKS, it would be a hard choice. The 30-30 is lighter than an SKS but the SKS has its advantages in spite of the extra weight. I use nothing but stripper clips. I can carry more ammo on stripper clips than I can comfortably carry mags. You put some HP's in an SKS and it makes a very good hunting rifle. Lever actions have proven their reliability over the years and so has the SKS. Particularly when you consider the jungle conditions that they were used in.
Hope nobody minds me bringing up a slightly stale thread. I think the viability of a lever action for SHTF depends on exactly what kind of SHTF we're talking about. Here in southeast Virginia, one of our big concerns is hurricanes. I have an SKS, and I have a Marlin 1894 in .357Mag. I think of the Marlin as my hurricane gun. When we're talking about SHTF that isn't full scale breakdown, life is going to go on. People will not be comfortable seeing what they consider "scary assault weapons," but a lever action rifle looks pretty innocuous. Plus it shares ammo with my primary CCW gun, and the full-size revolver I would probably have on my hip. Now, for more serious work, I would want something more powerful, like my SKS.
I always been a lever gun guy. Probably because I'm a lefty. I have them in 22 LR, 22 Mag, 357 Mag, 30-30, and 308, that being a BLR 81. It is my go to hunting rifle. That said, it's had to beat the old 30-30. It's the original intermediate cartridge. They have been trying to reinvent it since the late 1800's. 30 rem, 7.62x39, 6.8 SPC, British 280, just to name a few. Every weapon system has it's plus and minuses. The tube fed lever is no different. If a person was familiar with he would be a formidable opponent. My Cousin had 1 rifle, a Marlin 30-30. He shot 1 bullet, Winchester HP's, ( I don't remember what weight). I watched him take a deer from a knee at 300 yards. "Beware the man with 1 rifle...". Are there better systems out there? Sure. But if I woke up tomorrow with nothing but my marlin 30-30, I wouldn't feel the least bit under gunned.
I have both the sks and a win 30-30. My sks is decked out. Rail and scope, synthetic stock with folding butt, bi pod, even have the rails for a tac light and laser on the front sights. It's a sweet weapon! I guess the best features are the cleaning kit is on board (in the hand grip) and I can get tons of rounds CHEAP. Even in sardine cans. Honestly, it sucks for hunting no where near as accurate as my STOCK 30-30. I can never get the scope to stay set. No matter how many times I sight it in. Anyway, my first rifle was the 30-30 and as many have said before me, if you get in front of it, you're gonna get shot! Lol My opinion, if it where me against 5 or six guys, the 30-30. Me against more, I'm in my ghillie and gettin the hell outta there.
I have several Chi-Com SKS's. All are the "carbine " (16" bbl) model. First those top cover scope mounts just don't work. I have an ATI scope mount that is drilled and tapped to the receiver. Using Russian ammo I've taken several deer with it, With reloaded or custom loaded ammo like that from Hornady or Precision that uses the V-Max bullet, shoot very good groups. I had a ATI folding stock on one of my SKS's for a while. It was awful. I could never get the gun zeroed. I recently changed to a Tapco stock and love it. I may change them all to the Tapco. There are a lot of good stuff for the SKS out there. But there is also a lot of junk out there.
I killed deer with it this year but I'm just not hitting my mark like I should. I agree it's probably the top cover. I'm not a big fan of scopes anyway. The open sites are dead on. I'll look into the ATI mount. Thanks!
Simpleman there is also the unimax (SP) mount that replaces that gas tube. That is a solid mount also. A red dot mounted forward makes a real nice brush gun.
Very good points. I, too, would not feel undergunned with just a 30-30. The truth is that thing between your ears will more than make up for lack of a high rate of fire.
I am fairly new to these boards, and share a lot of similar interests, specifically minimalist camping and survival skills. I am listening to a lot of the rhetoric here, and I am wondering what situations do you honestly think you are going to find yourself in, and what are you realistically going to do about it? In my opinion, if you believe you are going to be a lone hero fighting off the evil hoards in a post apocalyptic world, I think you are dreaming. Your weapon is only as good as the amount of ammo you can carry, and whether or not you are being suppressed, while the enemy is bounding toward your position. If you are going to join a group or band of like minded people, in order to be an effective unit, you have to train as one. A group of men with "military" style weapons traipsing across the countryside, would attract too much un needed attention. A lone man with a "military" style weapon with all the fancy tactical gear will only attract negative attention and likely get himself killed. I have been in combat with insurgent guerillas for the last 10 years. If I wasn't directly engaged with them, I was training to defeat them. I will tell you this, the best camouflage is whatever the people are wearing, not tactical gear and equipment. This includes weaponry. I will give you an example. During the early days of Operation Iraqi Freedom 1, the civilians were allowed to have firearms, specifically long arms, because they used them for hunting, and protection of themselves and their flocks and crops. Crime was rampant and us an a occupying force recognized that. If they had a long arm that looked like a hunting rifle or shotgun, even the old military rifles like the springfield 03's, Enfields, and Mausers, we let them move around peaceably. If we saw AK's RPG's or Military Aged Males in Tactical Equipment we engaged them with overwhelming firepower. I do not believe we will ever be "occupied" here, but who knows. I do think that other groups of "survivalists" under those extreme circumstances would see a man running around in tactical gear and a military style weapon as a threat and more than likely deal with it as such, before they allow you into their perimeter. In my opinion, a hunting style rifle, like a Lever Action, or a Bolt Action, even a Surplus Military bolt Action Rifle, are the best choices for these types of situations. You can learn to use them efficiently, practice fire discipline and ammo conservation, which will be a valuable resource. The casings are easier to reload, the guns are easier to repair, and right now repair parts are fairly inexpensive. They will also blend in better with the new agrarian society as well. Just My Opinion based on limited experience. What is yours?
Sorry to be jumping in rather late here. I don't read the gun stuff much, because for me it was all settled years ago. FWIW, lever guns figure significantly in my preps. Here's what I know/did: Jeff Cooper experimented a lot with lever guns while he was working the kinks out of the Scout rifle concept. He was of the opinion that a lever gun with ghost ring sights ran a very close second to a purpose-built Scout rifle, and that opinion was formed by running lever guns side by side with early Scout rifle prototypes and battle rifles in actual classes at Gunsite. I never took a formal rifle class back then, but after shooting a friend's modified Winchester .30-30 I came to understand Cooper's position. (Far as I know, Jeff was never wrong about gun matters!) During the long wait for the Steyr Scout to arrive on the market, I set out to build my own custom Scout in .308. I even found and purchased the proper ZKK action, before deciding to spend less money on a pair of Marlin 336 .30-30's, proper sights and trigger work and just wait for the production Steyr. (I'm a redundancy freak, and two rifles beat one all day long! As the years passed, I ended up with a couple of Steyr Scouts as well, and I love them. My battle rifles are in .308 as well.) Today, the Marlins are my "trunk guns" - between a 1911 and a Marlin I don't feel at all undergunned, even when I go into Denver. Here are some miscellaneous .30-30 lever gun virtues and issues to consider, in no particular order: 1) The .30-30 is ballistically superior to the 7.62x39, by a fair margin. 2) The .30-30 was originally a black powder round, lending additional flexibility in reloading if things become particularly dire. 3) The Marlin action is far stronger than the Winchester, but you can't dry fire them without breaking the firing pin. (There's your spare parts list for a Marlin!) 4) With a bit of practice, you can shoot a lever gun surprisingly rapidly. If you practice your reloads as well, you can keep up an effective rate of defensive fire. 5) Lever gun accuracy surpasses most SKS/AK variants, and only hits count. 6) If hoplophobe appeasement matters to you, a .30-30 is as socially acceptable as guns get. Skill and mindset matter more than the gun, by a wide margin. In a SHTF scenario, I'm not going to be overly concerned with gang bangers armed with AK's, but I'd be scared s***less of one or two skilled riflemen armed with .30-30's. (As Cooper said "may all your enemies be on full auto"...) Think about that for a while. At this late date, if I needed to arm myself or my group with rifles on a tight budget (which is all the more budget most of us have!) Marlin 336's with ghost ring sights would be my first and probably only consideration, and I wouldn't give the trigger work a second thought. Even if you have the budget for fancier gear, consider staying with inexpensive lever guns and spending the difference on Ruger 10/22's, cartons of ammo and Appleseed courses. Keep going to those classes until everyone in your group can shoot a Rifleman score on demand, in any kind of weather. Then pass the 10/22's on to the kids, and get them to Appleseed. That package of rifles and skills beats your armchair commandos and the M14's they can't shoot all to hell...
As mentioned before, having a non-military-looking firearm can be a real asset. I have a Savage 99 in .300 Savage. Virtually identical ballistics to .308, but nobody bats an eye when you mention it. My wife's Savage 99 is in .250 Savage, another highly under-rated cartridge. Both cartridges are easily capable of doing there part out past 300 yards. We reload, so we can be much more independent of needing common calibers. The Savage 99 is sleek, balances well, and looks as non-threatening to military and police as any firearm can. The rotary magazine can also be topped-up easily. A point I didn't see is that a lever-action does not depend on the cartridge to operate the action. You can use ANY load that will kick a bullet past the muzzle. I've used black powder and surplus 110gr carbine bullets to make a short-range small-game load. Try THAT with your semi-autos! Of course, I do have some .32acp chamber inserts for my FAL.
The one thing no one seems to get about the shtf weapons is ammo cost. What ever weapon you chose it should be in a combat/military caliber. So for a lever action something in 308 would work. The other calibers just cost to much for most people to buy enough ammo. 308 is the only one i can think of that you can get a lever action in. Savage 99 and I think maybe a model 94
As I posted earlier Browning makes a box magazine rifle that comes in several popular calibers including .308. The link is there on page 1. It's post #23 and again in post #26. At least 15 calibers to choose from. No reason to go with a tubular magazine. Sorry, it doesn't come in .30-30.
Military calibers are nice, and I have several because the of the surplus market. But the last I checked the military isn't going to be making a resupply drop at any ones house any time soon. If you caliber passes the "Wal-Mart test" you should be OK. My Wal-Mart stocks more 30-30 than 308. Just another reason to store enough so you don't have to worry about it.
I would go with either a Marlin 308 MX or a 338 MX if I was forced to choose a levergun for post shtf. Same cons as everyone else - but if you are forced into a firefight with anything you are wrong. If you are bugging out, avoid confrontation at all cost. Semiauto mag fed milspec carbines and rifles are for defending your home location imho. I have a lot of leverguns and for sheer commonality, the Marlin in 30-30 is hard to beat. But if you roll yer own, and I do, I sure like the 338 MX ballistics-wise. For pure versatility, I'd probably have to grab my little 1894P in 44 mag and then strap on the super redhawk as an accompanying piece.
