This one is for the Atheists here

I have friends who are atheists, a couple agnostics, a scoffer or two, some lukewarm to anything, some active Christians, and then some who ernestly try to live their faith in every aspect of their lives. None of the above are bad people and mostly honest. Being of good character is not dependent on one's faith or lack of--but I am impressed the good morals and integrity of those striving to live a good life. I know folks of other faiths who are fantastically good parents and community builders. It is the person that makes who he is. To all this I will add the query: what do we do about the man called Jesus described in the New Testament, referred to in the Old Test., and mentioned in several historical documents? He cannot be discarded as fable or myth. Cannot be dismissed as merely a prophet or Godly man. Nicodemus (@John 6) went to see Jesus at night and had a lengthy conversation with him. Nic. was one of the chief priests and a gub official. A man of great intellect and political savvy and he recognized that Jesus was a Godly man able to do miracles. Saul was a student of the best teachers in Jerusalem and had a legal right to hunt down Christians. He had the power to imprison and even kill them yet he came face to face with his knowledge and became one of the greatest writers of the New Testament. So, the question is the same to each of us no matter who we are, where we are, what status we have, how much money we possess, or how many degrees of education we have attained----what do we do with the man named Jesus?? Do we accept or reject His life and teachings? Do we ask him into our lives to live and guide? Just a simple question but one which has eternal consequences and direct bearings on our every day lives.

 

AMEN!

 

What do we do with the man named Jesus? Nothing. Why would we have to do anything? Accept or reject his teachings? What is so remarkable and fantastic about his teachings? That we should be good, loving, decent people? If religious people say they accept his teachings, are they better human beings than those who never heard of him or his teachings? Why people must either accept of refuse "his" teachings? Didn't people have any love, compassion, decency, reason or humanity before he was born? If he never existed, would humanity be crazed, murderous psychopats? Ofcourse not!
There are tribes and people all around the world that never heard about Jesus or his teachings, and yet they live in harmony with eachother and with nature...
Sure, Jesus said some good, decent, human things, and he said some silly, naive, ridiculous things... But we would still be human and had all our feelings, thoughts and desires even if he didn't exist.
For example, Jesus said:
Love thy neighbour as yourself? Yeah, right! I saw his love of Judas! If my neighbour is a good, decent person, sure...but if not...
Forgive others transgressions? Depends on the transgressions!
Love your enemies?! Do people look that stupid? Anyone does that? Govt? Church? Why were then invented guns, bombs, soldiers?...Obviously, there were some minor disagreements in god's ranks, or Jesus misunderstood something his "father" said...
It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the Kingdom of God?! Soooo...he was a communist also?
Since I don't accept these ridiculous "teachings", do I love my family or people in general less than people that accept his "teachings"? Am I a bad person because of that?
I might had some respect for him before, but since the Gospel of Judas and his tomb were found, I lost all respect for him and his "teachings"...

A good person is a good person...Jesus or no Jesus...
A bad person is a bad person...Jesus or not...

 

Something you seemingly failed to see:--"

I have friends who are atheists, a couple agnostics, a scoffer or two, some lukewarm to anything, some active Christians, and then some who ernestly try to live their faith in every aspect of their lives. None of the above are bad people and mostly honest. Being of good character is not dependent on one's faith or lack of--but I am impressed the good morals and integrity of those striving to live a good life. I know folks of other faiths who are fantastically good parents and community builders. It is the person that makes who he is."-----I nor anyone here said those w/o Jesus were "bad" nor did they imply such so please don't get your hackles up.
---"and he said some silly, naive, ridiculous things...Would you be very specific about these "things" please?
-----"I saw his love for Judas" and "Gospel of Judas and his tomb were found"-----Would you enlighten us a bit more please? I am ignorant of said "gospel".
I would like to add that Jesus spoke kindly to Judas in the upper room and told him to do what he had to do quickly. He did this knowing full well the consequences to follow his words. Could you speak kindly to someone who was betraying you?

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I had heard of this but had filed it under fictitious where it belongs. Here is a bit on it:
Gospel of Judas - Who Wrote It and What Does it Say?
It is unknown who wrote the Gospel of Judas. Our biggest clue comes from Irenaeus (a second century Christian) who referenced the Gospel of Judas as invented history of heretics and rebels. In about 180 AD, Irenaeus wrote:

• “They declare that Judas the traitor was thoroughly acquainted with these things, and that he alone, knowing the truth as no others did, accomplished the mystery of the betrayal; by him all things, both earthly and heavenly, were thus thrown into confusion. They produce a fictitious history of this kind, which they style the Gospel of Judas.” (Adversus Haereses I.31.1; Roberts-Donaldson translation.
  
  
  To adequately understand why this was written one needs to understand what Gnostics were and are. They claim special knowledge and gloat over it in a lording manner. Jesus made the "way" so simple that a child can understand it and did it for a reason. That way no one can claim anything special except through Him. Paul wrote in several places that he was a bond slave to the gospel(truth).
  Frankly I am surprised that an intelligent person would fall prey to such things as "judas" and others like the painting scam of a couple yrs back. Then it was the shroud of Turin. The gospel needs no further substantiation and is full capable of withstanding any assaults. Wish I could say the same for myself and others.
  

 

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I wasn't attacking you, or anything...This was just my view of Jesus, "the man"...And here is why and what...


http://www.nationalgeographic.com/lostgospel/_pdf/GospelofJudas.pdf

The Lost Gospel of Judas--Photos, Time Line, Maps--National Geographic



You can see that Jesus was seducing Judas into doing what he wanted, and preparing him for long time to make him "betray" him. Jesus pursuaded Judas that he was his favourite diciple, and was destined to "betray" him, that it was god's will, and that because of that, his star would burn the brightest and would lead in front of all others!...Oh, really?!
All that "do what you have to do" story was for show and awe of other witnesses. It appeared like Jesus was psychic and knew who would betray him, but Jesus himself actually ordered Judas to do that!
And as for excuse WHY Judas did that, 30 silver coins were exchanged! It was for cash!!! Yeeeeyyyyyy! Govts are sure reading the bible!
And then Judas, who goes in person to the Romans, makes a premeditated, planned deal, and shamelessly sells Jesus for money, kills himself right after the deal goes through?!
Soooo...a bad guy sells someone for cold cash, presenting to the world greed, disrespect and hatred towards Jesus, then he takes the cash, and instead of spending money on booze and girls, immediatelly goes and hangs himself?!?!?
Yeah, right!! Veeeery believable story! It worked for people 2000 years ago, but now?!

Judas was exploited by Jesus in the most perverted manner possible, and poor Judas couldn't live with the loss of, what he thought to be, his master and son of god!

I can only imagine what 9/11 would look like if Jesus was planning it!

Jesus wanted to be god and wanted to be worshipped as god, or at least a son of god. In order to achieve that, he had to be crucified, pronounced "dead", and then somehow "ressurected", after what he would dissappear from the stage and dive into anonymity...what he ultimately did do. (Now that is a witness protection program!... ).
Apparently, he married Mary and had a child with her, a son, and lived happily ever after. Entire Jesus family was burried in a single crypt which was found...What was the cup myth about? What was the big secret knights kept? His later life and his child! If it came out, there would be no Christianity, and no big business would go silently away...
If Jesus tried to pull a stunt like that today, he would be in a lunatic asylum or in jail!

This is not personal and not against anyone. This is MY view only. Everyone is free to disagree and to state their own view. If I offended anyone's beliefs or ideals, I do appologize, that was NOT my intention!

 

This "harmony" you speak of is simply loving thy neighbor. The premise of the 2 greatest commandments is really very simple. My six year old gets it. If you love your neighbor as yourself, you will not wrong your neighbor. Same applies to loving God. If you love God above all else, you will not wrong him. Those two commandments encompass all the commandments ever written. Your "yeah right" response is a good snapshot of how evil and selfish man is. Those big 2 are all God ever wanted for man. It's our weakness that makes it near impossible.... that's where grace comes in.

 

There are very few things that I would die for. The eleven disciples made decisions to spread the story of Jesus's life, teachings, miracles, death, resurection, and ascension. Most of them died for their stand--some horribly. I would not die for something that I did not believe in or had not witnessed personally. This "gospel of judas" and other rumors are not proven other than their age which does not predate actual real scripture. There are way too many actual documents existing today that totally counter these baseless, tasteless, and blasphemous accusations.
Believe what you will but please be specific in your discussions using something other than the disproven "davinci papers". It is soooo funny to me that with hundreds and thousands of actual documents from 100AD on that one would put stock in a fictitious story(that states so in the first pages). Fiction is often much more palatable than the truth especially when one doesn't like to face the facts. Odd that a sensible intelligent person would so easily fall prey to such slanderous made up stories. One of Jesus's disciples when sentenced to be cruxified for preaching about what he had witnessed personally asked to be hung upside down. He said he did not deserve to be hung the same way that his Savior had been. One was torn asunder, another burned with oil, and most of the rest hunted down and killed. Would any of us continue to preach something if faced with certain death if we did not fervently believe in it?

 

Hmmmm...so, I'm evil because I said "yeah, right"? LOL...good one!

"If you love your neighbor as yourself, you will not wrong your neighbor"....OK...what if I kill him attempting to liberate him? Did I do right or wrong? Heaven or Hell?
What if he's infected with lethal and extremely contagious disease, and could kill millions by spreading it? Do I kill him then and save millions, or do I let him spread it?
What would a good religious, god-fearing person do? How would he know what is right and what to do?

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Didn't Moses brought 10 commandments from the mountain? How come god...err...Jesus...err...I'm not sure who now... only wanted those 2? Did Moses wrote the other 8 himself? Looks like he was a crafty little devil...

History is written by the winners...and bible is sort of a history, so...
If you see how many gospels and writings were discarded from the beginning, you could see how that history was deliberately shaped and manipulated. If gospel of Judas is not trusted, why would any other gospel be trusted? Why would anyone trust the bible itself then?
If gospel of Judas is a rumor, what are all other gospels? What is the bible then? Rumor compilation? Who actually made the bible? Who decided which gospels would be in it, and which won't? On what basis was that selection made and by who?

The bible does not, and can not refer to all human kind. There are quite few religions that do not trust or use the bible. None of the ancient nations knew of bible or one god or Jesus. Jesus actually invented the Christianity, and bible came much later on.

...As for disproven "davinci papers"...I presume then that there is absolutely proven evidence about all other gospels and the bible? Written, signed, photographed, analyzed and carbon dated? Anything more than rumor, belief and blind faith?

I'm aware that even if some document written by Jesus himself was found that goes against anything in the bible would be discarded as fake, fraud, or whatnot...That's fine with me. Everyone has the right to believe in what he wants...

And another thing...only religious persons can be blasphemous, Atheists can not! Since Atheists do not believe in god, they can't be blasphemous and ruin god's, church's or religion's reputation...
And again...I'm not trying to prove religious people wrong or insult them, I just state my view and my opinion....So, no need for trying to prove me wrong or evil or anything...

My best to you all and Cheers!

 

Bane, for a supposedly well informed person you seem to woefully lack the knowledge of when the "Bible" was canonized or accepted. There was a great meeting of church leaders and they prayerfully and dilligently selected the Books of the Bible. It was not done flippantly but with great care. There were certain guidelines that had to be met. The writers had to have had personal knowledge if I remember correctly of Jesus(talking about the NT). Most of the books of the Bible were written shortly after Jesus's ascension by eye witnesses. The letters of Paul to the early churchs scattered about and the letters to individual disciples of Jesus by others comprise most of the NT. It is nothing spooky or mysterious. Just devout men writing to concerns that needed guidance.
Folks rejected it then and some do today--nothing new or novel about that disbelief.
Will close with this passage from Titus: <table id="table_bible" class="table_bible" border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tbody><tr id="Tts_3_10_1132010"><td class="td_bible_verse_heading" align="left" valign="top" width="68">Tts 3:10</td> <td> </td> <td class="td_bible_text" valign="top">A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject; </td></tr></tbody></table>

 

First off, yes. All men are evil. What you are referring to is in Matt 22:36-40. The context is this- "<SUP>15</SUP>Then the Pharisees went out and laid plans to trap him in his words."

Here is Jesus' answer:
"Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?" <SUP class=versenum id=en-NIV-23908>37</SUP>Jesus replied: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.'<SUP class=footnote value='[a]'>[a]</SUP> <SUP class=versenum id=en-NIV-23909>38</SUP>This is the first and greatest commandment. <SUP class=versenum id=en-NIV-23910>39</SUP>And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'<SUP class=footnote value='[b]'>[b]</SUP> <SUP class=versenum id=en-NIV-23911>40</SUP>All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."

The old law is from Exodus 20:

No other gods.
No idols.
Do not use the Lord's name in vain.
Keep the Sabbath.
Honor your Father and your Mother.
No murder.
No adultery.
No theft.
No bearing false witness (lie).Do not covet.
So, you see, that is what is amazing about Jesus. He was not trapped by the Phariseees. He summed up all the law into two commandments. At least know the laws and the context of Jesus' stamements if you are going to try to refute or show contradiction.

I think -06 answered this well. If you still don't get it, try Lee Strobel's book. He to was an atheist before he took the time research the origins of the Bible- particularly the new testament. Given the inherent inconsistencies in transcribing, the Bible is remarkably unchanged when compared to the earliest versions available. If we accept other historical documents as fact, the Bible should also be treated as such.

I'm not sure I understand your point. The Torah (old testament) was written down long before Jesus. He qoted it regularly. It predicted His coming. The new testament was written shortly after His death and resurrection.

Yes. I would start another argument on carbon dating, but I really don't feel like going down that road.

To date, I am not aware of such a document. In fact, if you read the Bible, it becomes apparent that Jesus is not liekly to have written anything. After being rejected several times by disbelievers, he begins to speak in parables only. He only explained things to the disciples.

That's assuming atheists are right.

 

Actually theFirst Council of Nicaea was simplly to reach a consensus amoung the christians various leadership... they determined dates to celebrate Easter, how to interpret jesus as being the literal son of God versus the other term Child of god used to describe other figurative childeren.

Other things: from Wiki...

<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com
· prohibition of self-castration

· establishment of a minimum term for catechumen (persons studying for baptism)

· prohibition of the presence in the house of a cleric of a younger woman who might bring him under suspicion (the so called virgines subintroductae)
· ordination of a bishop in the presence of at least three provincial bishops and confirmation by the Metropolitan bishop
· provision for two provincial synods to be held annually
· exceptional authority acknowledged for the patriarchs of Alexandria and Rome (the Pope), for their respective regions
· recognition of the honorary rights of the see of Jerusalem
· provision for agreement with the Novatianists, an early sect
· provision for mild procedure against the lapsed during the persecution under Licinius
· prohibition of the removal of priests
· prohibition of usury among the clergy
· precedence of bishops and presbyters before deacons in receiving the Eucharist (Holy Communion)
· declaration of the invalidity of baptism by Paulian heretics
· prohibition of kneeling during the liturgy on Sundays and during the Pentecost (the fifty days after Easter). Standing was the normative posture for prayer at this time, as it still is among the Eastern Orthodox and Eastern Catholics. ...


A number of books were not included n the current bible called the Pseudepigrapha, these included writing concerning jesus's infancy and childhood, the book of joseph the Carpenter,Letters Of Christ and Abgarus, etc including a book purported to be by John the lesser Jesus brother...

just a few thoughts...

 

Lol...I woefullu lack the knowledge? Are you serious? Half of the bible are pre-Jesus texts taken from Mesopotamian[SIZE=-1] Epic of Gilgamesh!!! In their original form, none of those texts mentions one god or his son! Gods are mentioned as creators of man! Gods...Plural! The virgin Mary story was implanted to Jesus and was stolen from the myth of Myrrha and Tamuz! Adam and Eve from Mesopotamian legends! Creation story too!

The earliest text that even mentions Jesus was dated at least 50-75 years A.D! Eyewitnesses? I think not! [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]The VERY first references to the gospel, virgin Mary, baptism and crucifixion of Jesus, to him being the family of David, and God being his father are from seven letters written by [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]Ignatius of Antioch, who lived in the first century!! [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]And from there the religion spread! From writings of one anonymous man that were then copied and spread around! Divine origins? Personal knowledge?! Yeah, right! The followers of [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]Ignatius of Antioch started working in overdrive, and since each one of them wanted to please the leader and the masses, they all added their own bits and pieces...so, suddenly miracles were performed by Jesus! The fact that they copied them from the mythology of Bacchus and Isis cults, as well as, the fact that those "miracles" were "witnessed" and "recorded" a century later, didn't bother anyone! They even invented the city of Nazareth, a city that never existed! There was a city called Notzrim, but the "witnesses" probably screwed up the name writing their "authentic and original gospels"!

Emperor Constantine's mother, while cruizing Palestine, looking for a place to build some basilicas, named a small, petty village Nazareth, since she found out that a city with such name never existed![/SIZE] And that happened in the beginning of the 4-th century!
[SIZE=-1] Emperor Constantine, by the Edict of Milan, legalized the Christianity cult through the Roman Empire. After squabbling for quite some time about what God and Jesus are supposed to be, the bishops convened in Nicea, and came to a brilliant compromise: [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]Jesus and God were made from "the same substance"!!! Really?! Who would have guessed? And what the hell that supposed to mean???...LOL[/SIZE]
So, the bishops bunch then establishes [SIZE=-1]the Nicene Creed, and in fact, a bunch of politicians, in their fight for power, created the foundations of Catholicism and Christianity as it is today![/SIZE] Ain't that nice?
[SIZE=-1] The Chi Rho and the[/SIZE] fish symbol are discarded and replaced by the cross at this time from the myth of [SIZE=-1]Dionisus, who was depicted as being given a crown of ivy, dressed in a purple robe, and was given gall to drink before he was crucified!!! Does this reminds you of someone? Hmmmm...
[/SIZE][SIZE=-1]The headquarters of the church was established in Rome, and the head of the church became known as the Pope[/SIZE].
[SIZE=-1]
[/SIZE][SIZE=-1]Then, [/SIZE][SIZE=-1] Emperor Constantine gives [/SIZE][SIZE=-1] the bishop of Caesaria, Eusebius, a task to compile and [/SIZE]produce multiple copies of scriptures and "gospels", so they can be given to the new churches he was building all over Constantinople, in time [SIZE=-1] for his newly invented festival of the resurrection, which would be called "Easter"[/SIZE]!
[SIZE=-1]The church becomes a political instrument, a propaganda tool, teaching the masses to be patient while suffering under Roman rule, because a better life for you is at hand, if you believe in Jesus the Savior! The Emperor sucks in this earthly life, but Jesus will help you in the next life! In other words, just shut up, be quiet and suffer...[/SIZE][SIZE=-1]

Cheers!
[/SIZE]

 

Reference please

 

Can you read Macedonian, Serbian, Bosnian, Croatian or Bulgarian?
I'll see if I can find something in English...

 

On the other hand...why should I bother? You can google it yourself if you want...
I just don't care that much...LoL

Cheers!

 

Nevermind. I found you entire single source of information via Google:
The Bible And Christianity -- The Historical Origins

The dead giveaway is this:

That is one take on history.

I think a better source is great idea....

You can see Scott Bidtrup's homepage for the article here:
Veritas Et Ratio - Truth And Reason

To put it in perspective... if I was to quote Pat Robertson, I don't think you would take me serious.

So, I will answer with a regurgitation from a biased source with one of my own:
"Sometimes some Muslims pick up on a very outdated atheist critique that Nazareth didn't even exist in Jesus time. Here is a response from a resident of Nazareth, February 1998.
Perhaps the Muslim "scholar" referred to the fact that there was no Christian Church in Nazareth until Queen Helena, Constantine's mother came through Nazareth on her famous Holy Land trip in the fourth century and had the little basilica built over Mary's Well to mark the spot of the annunciation by the angel Gabriel. They were recently repairing the road in front of the Greek Orthodox Church of the Annunciation at Mary's Well in Nazareth. They discovered earlier ruins in the process, so now the whole plaza in front of the church is now an archeological site and you cannot drive a car through!
Down the road in the center of town the huge Basilica to the Annunciation built by the Roman Catholics preserves as its altar the first Century cave home of the Virgin Mary and its foundations are built over numerous cave dwellings. They have a little archeological museum with artifacts found during this period. Up the hill is the Church of Joseph built over caves which they claim were used as carpenter shops. Across the street the Sister's of Nazareth Hospice is built over an ancient first century or earlier grave with the huge rolling stone door still in place. A block away (modern term!) the Greek Catholic Church in the market is built next to the ancient synagogue that Jesus read the Torah in and the people took him out to throw him off the hill the city was built on.
So, anyone with eyes to see needs no proof of the existence of Nazareth in the first century and many centuries earlier! Nazareth was know as a city of refuge, tucked away in a mountain valley above the Valley of Meggido, or Esdraelon. It was a sleeply little hollow less than 2-3 miles from the metropolis Zippori where Mary's mother was from. Zippori has recently been excavated by Duke University and is now one of the largest archeological sites in the country which shows first century and earlier synagogues and homes with beautiful mosaics still intact.
There is debate about the location of Cana of Galilee, about five miles down the road from Nazareth toward Tiberias. The present Cana may not have been the site in the first Century. The site was moved in the early Christian centuries because the original site (Tel Kana) was unreacheable in the winter when the Natofa Valley flooded from the winter rains. The modern site does contain artifacts from the early Roman period. But the original site, which a local Muslim friend of mine took me too, is about three miles across the Natofa Valley in Tel Kana, which by the way, is also a network of cave homes.
I can assure you the local Muslim villagers who live at these sites and use many of the caves for their stables do not doubt their authenticity!
Dr. Ray Register (who lived in Nazareth for 25 years"


Here is the link:
Nazareth


Next time you CTRL-C, CTRL-V something that isn't generally accepted by most scholars as truth, don't hide behind a language barrier. Man up. Own it and provide a link.


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Who the heck is Scott Bidtrup? And no, that page was certainly not my source of information...Beside different books, (yes, some of us actually read even real, paper books!), National Georaphy channel is what I used as refference, but since I saw a lot of documentaries, I'd have to look for names of them...
I saw what he has on his site, and so far I don't see anything false in that bible article. It is possible that he red similar books and saw same documentaries...
Anyway...Is anything I wrote in my post false? The story of Constantine is well known and can be found in many books and documentaries.
And who is Pat Robertson?
If you do some research about Queen Helena, Constantine's mother, you might find that she was building churches all over and constantly seeking relics.
As for Nazareth...
"The Arabic name for Nazareth is an-Nāṣira, and Jesus (Arabic: يسوع‎‎, Yasū` or Arabic: عيسى‎, `Īsā) is also called an-Nāṣirī, reflecting the Arab tradition of according people a nisba, a name denoting from whence a person comes in either geographical or tribal terms. In the Koran, Christians are referred to as nasara, meaning "followers of an-Nāṣirī," or "those who follow Jesus"
So, Jesus was born in a city that has name that means "those who follow Jesus"?
Lots of good stuff on wiki too...might want to check it out...

If you want to continue with this discussion, I have a nice list of religious questions for you that I'd like you to answer if you know...or you could just CTRL-C, CTRL-V if you don't know, I don't mind at all...If you reply to this post quoting me, I'll assume that the game is on! Or just say you agree...
But a little warning is in order here...do not go personal again! I have no desire of exchanging insults publicly! Even fun has it's limits!

So...shell the fun begin now, or what?...