Food supply

I wouldn't trust canned stuff after 2 years. I've seen cans bulge over time. That means something was inside growing. Not good!
They were probably much older than 2 years, but were probably inedible way before they started to bulge. So how would you know?
Stored cool and dry BTW.

For me - 2 years then into the trash.

If you're really organized, I've seen this suggested:
Buy extra cans of whatever you eat whenever you shop. Rotate stock so you eat the oldest first. stop when you have a 2 year stockpile.
For example: You eat a can of tuna / wk.
You buy 4 cans per week.
You go back to buying 1 can / wk. when you have 104 cans.
Whenever you open a can, it's always the oldest.

In this way, you never throw away anything.

As for me.... great idea, but doesn't work too well with my ADD

 

If it is bulging then throw it out. The thermal processing that canned goods undergo prevents anything from growing unless the can was damaged. I eat canned goods well over two years old and don't think anything about it. After about five years the product inside will start to lose it's nutritional value but it is still safe to eat. The pathogen of concern clostridium botulinum will not grow in the sterile environment of the can as long as the thermal processing curve was conducted properly per the plant's SOP and as long as the can or container is not damaged. The biggest downside of long term storage if canned goods is slow nutritional degradation and change of taste.

 

So you're saying there was something wrong with those cans?

I always thought that canning could not completely sterilize the contents and eventually the microbes would grow but they just kill enough so that it won't spoil for a long time. Not true?

 

The thermal processing kills any pathogen of concern, the problem arises when there was a mistake made during the thermal processing or canning procedure, or if the can is damaged or has a tiny leak. I see recalls daily of salmonella in poultry, e.Coli O157:H7 in raw beef, and listeria monocytogenes in cooked products, but I cannot remember the last time I saw a recall of a canned product. I'm not saying it doesn't happen, but when it does it is a rare event, very rare. Companies such as Campbells have the process so streamlined with phenominal amounts of testing of finished products that a problem is caught before it leaves the plant. Canned foods in my experience are the safest foods you can eat.

 

It depends on the sterilization technique used. I.E. Time and temp.
higher temp shorter time required. Certain "bugs" need hotter temp to kill or de-activate them (no more reproduction).

Canned goods I believe are RETORTED, or pressure cooked, providing the high temp to kill most if not all of the yeasts, molds, aerobic organisms, anaerobic organisms, virus, spores of yeast and mold, etc., hence 2+ years ambient storage shelf life.

Micro on foods is all about the LOG (mathematics X10) reduction of the organisms and then lowering water activity or pH, or adding preservatives so the lower level of "bugs" don't re-grow. They will eventually over come this and grow to an unsafe level, usually butnot always before all flavor and nutrional value has faded (mountain house, no water for the bugs to re-grow, lasts 20 years) The lower you get the initial micro count, the longer the food lasts, unless stored in unfavorable conditions i.e. stored in favorable for micro to grow conditions, typically room temp, neutral pH. e.g. two canned food items, processed same way, one stored hot, one cold, the cold one will last longer as you are out of the micro's optimum growth temp, higher temp promotes all chemical reactions. In biology there is a temp range, too hot and you kill too cold and they hardly move in between they thrive.

Freeze thaw. depends on the product. for example If it is an emulsion (fat and oil made to stay together) those don't like freeze thaw and will separate after about 1-2 freeze thaw cycles, depending on the emulsifier used. There is probably a list some where on the internet about this, try usda website. However the first hand way is to put 5- 10 cans of your fav canned good in freezer for 2 days to allow them to freeze. Pull all or one can(s). Allow to thaw. open 1 and observe it, taste it, then put unopened cans back in freezer. allow to freeze, and repeat until you see degradation of the product. The interval at which you pull them should be at minimum a week, maybe even monthly.
This will give you freeze thaw shelf life. Freeze thaw mainly affects how the product looks, flavor, texture.

http://www.ag.ndsu.edu/pubs/yf/foods/fn579-1.htm

http://fnic.nal.usda.gov/nal_displa...2&level4_id=0&level5_id=0&placement_default=0

 

Now I'm confused, because this was more of what I was thinking:

Anyway, I don't feel bad about throwing them out after 2 years or better - rotating them into consumption.


On another note:

I have some freeze dried stuff with my camping gear - REI stuff from Mountain House, etc. Not a lot, just a few meals.

We moved, and I absentmindedly put all that stuff in an uninsulated attic for about a year (very hot / very cold). Toss it, or keep it?

 

What's confusing you?

Start with raw food, micro count 100,000 cfu
pasteurize, irradiate, cook now micro count 1000 cfu
add preservatives to hold micro count low until preservative effect runs out, micros start to re-grow depending on water content and temperature.
store food hot or moist micros grow from 1000 back to unsafe 100,000 faster
store food cold dry micros grow slow from 1000 back to 100,000
light oxygen and moisture and heat and time will degrade flavors fats and vitamins

The changing temp storage only accelerates loss while at hot temp, when cold it all slows back down, but overall it drops the original shelf life proportionally. So you really have to check some of the food. They have storge calculations for this somewhere. You can lower the micro load by cooking thoroughly, i.e. repasteurize before you eat.
The stuff in the attic. Open up one or two and check it out, does it look bad, does it smell bad? (The nose knows) . If a dog wouldn't eat it I wouldn't eat it.

 

why just get a few feezers and pack your stuff into them that way if the day ever comes that the power is gone and they fully defrost then your dryed goods and stuff will be still in good shape rather than let them go through freezin then defrosting several times before they are even needed.

 

Slugo...I worked for a dozen years in Biotech---sterile systems were my specialty, autoclaves, bio-reactors etc.

We tested and validated to 6 logs reduction in Geobacillus stearothermophilus as a baseline...your either sterile or not...

but this thread has drifted...back to the storage...looking for examples in your cabins...sheds from freeze thaw...how some foods compared to others

 

Y'ok

How exactly is information regarding food storage off topic?

Riddle my that Mr. Sterile.

 

E.L. Seems to be implying that the shelf life is infinite. (unless I misread)
I suspected that those bulging cans were caused by the regrowth of what was already present.
If there's something present, anything, there's no way that shelf life can be infinite.
Slug seems to have confirmed my suspicion.

Eventually, those cans will turn.

 

bulging cans is a sure sign of botulism.

 

Actually no, a bulging can is a sign of either a heat loving bacteria/ gas producing bacteria that has produced gas and potentially caused spoilage (not harmful just causing effects such as bad odor or bad taste) or it could be a defect in the can in that it was not sealed properly or came ajar, became damaged, etc. The retort process renders everything in the can sterile as long as it is done correctly, the pressure and steam cooking to lethality kills everything unless there is a heat loving bacteria in it that could produce gas to make the can bulge, but again this is not a pathogen that is harmful. As part of the retort process the can is filled, then pressure steamed cooked so that the product inside is not post lethality exposed. Everything inside is sterile. Now if there is obvious damage to the can then throw it out more for your peace of mind than anything. As long as the container is intact and the retort process was conducted properly, no they will not ever turn. The only thing that could live would be the heat loving bacteria which while they may cause odor or bad taste are not harmful. I have heard of canned goods that were from the 1800's being tested and while the nutritional content was nil' they were still edible. Don't just take my word for it though do some research on your own, my employers website is a good start. www.Fsis.USDA.gov

 

Now as I state the above that is for large scale commercial systems, many people have died from mistakes in canning their own food products. I trust Campbells more than I trust myself when it comes to being able to properly can food products.

 

While extremely rare, a toxin produced by​

Clostridium botulinum ​

​

​

​

is the worst danger
in canned foods. NEVER USE food from
containers that show signs of “botulism”:
leaking, bulging, rusting, or badly dented
cans; cracked jars; jars with loose or bulging
lids; canned food with a foul odor; or any
container that spurts liquid when opening.


FROM YOUR WEBSITE.
http://origin-www.fsis.usda.gov/oa/topics/foodsec_cons.pdf
http://www.fsis.usda.gov/Search/Sea...um=10&as_occt=any&site=FSIS&btnG.x=8&btnG.y=3
http://www.fsis.usda.gov/


CLostridium bacteria are thermophillic, thus could survive retort. If they do then you're can is bulging.

You work for the USDA? What do you do?​

 

Yes I work for the USDA, however I do not work in a canning plant. The plants under my jurisdiction produce raw, heat treated, and/or fully cooked products. The pathogens that I am usually worried about are E. coli 0157:H7, Salmonella, Listeria Monocytogenes, and Clostridum Perfrigens which are spore forming bacteria like Botulinum. The canning information was provided to me from a supervisor who has a canning plant under his jurisdiction.

Retort kills Botulinum toxins when the establishment's HACCP (Hazard Analysis Critical Control Point) Plans are followed. While Botulinum toxins are thermofillic, to my knowledge the products produced in canning are cooked well above the lethality requirement to kill the toxin:
"Botulinum toxin is destroyed by heating to 80°C for 10 minutes." http://origin-www.fsis.usda.gov/ophs/Microlab/Mlgchp14.pdf Cooking a medium contaminated with Botulinum toxins to 176 F for ten minutes destroys the pathogen. As I stated previously, as long as the correct procedures are followed by the canning establishment, and as long as the container is sound the product inside is sterile. The problems that typically arise with Botulinum is that individuals who can food products make a mistake, and it kills them. While I know people that can, and while my grandparents used to do it, I myself with probably never do it. I have never worked a recall for canned products, does it happen yes, but very rarely. The last one I could find was in 2007. http://origin-www.fsis.usda.gov/News_&_Events/Recall_033_2007_Release/index.asp This recall was conducted due to an equipment malfunction. Typically when a can bulges it is from a gas forming bacteria, which the majority of are not pathogenic. "In years of testing, the vast majority of gas-forming anaerobe cultures isolated by FSIS from meat and poultry product samples were botulinum toxin negative." http://origin-www.fsis.usda.gov/ophs/Microlab/Mlgchp14.pdf Can a bulging can be a sign of Botulinum? Yes, but not typically in a product produced in a commercial application.

Any public agency, and any canning company will tell you that you should eat the product by it's sell by date which is usually around two years on cans that I have checked. For one liability, two the canning company wants you to throw it out so you will have to replace it. Would I throw out a bulging can of my own, yes because you never know, and even if it wasn't Botulinum positive it may have an off-taste. It's better to be safe than sorry, and peace of mind means a lot.

When I get a chance I will talk to the IIC of the canning plant and get some details on retort temperatures and times out of curiosity. Canning is an interesting process, and since my long term food storage relies heavily upon it I am always interested in seeing more data, and learning more about the retort process.

 

I am a little confused... if you have a years supply on hand and rotate it, why do you need to buy the food items in #10 cans? (rice, beans, powered milk and such)